US Gun Laws, Massacres & Racial Violence

Discussion in 'Mainstream News Stories' started by rynner2, Oct 16, 2007.

  1. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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  2. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Devoted Cultist

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    Well, he was also known to regularly "entertain" prostitutes while in Vegas.
     
  3. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    I didn’t know that for a fact, but I had thought it a likely explanation!
     
  4. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Devoted Cultist

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    This is of course all press reporting, which may later to turn out to be incorrect. But it sort of fits the emerging picture of the man.
     
  5. McAvennie

    McAvennie Justified & Ancient

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    Strangely the police now saying the hero security guard who seemingly distracted him and brought an end to the shooting was actually shot before the mass shooting began.

    Perhaps the sight of a security guard in his corridor actually triggered him to think he was about to get busted and so go out in a blaze of gunfire.

    I still think he was a gun runner and having all the guns in the room was because it was being used as a showroom for buyers, rather than having all been brought in for a shooting spree.
     
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  6. Tigerhawk

    Tigerhawk Abominable Snowman

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    I thought it was the other way around...
     
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  7. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    The private planes and the wiring of large sums to the Philippines do point towards some not entirely legitimate business interests. He was a retired accountant who lived in a rather modest looking home. There would need to be some other explanation of his lifestyle.

    There was also the matter of the explosive (tannerite) in his car.

    So I’m leaning towards gun runner as well, but I’m also thinking that the only coherent narrative being offered so far is from ISIS. It’s only really his age that makes us think he was an unlikely recruit.

    Rukmini Callimachi - who writes on ISIS for the New York Times - has written some interesting stuff on the conflicting arguments re: the likelihood of this being linked to them. Her Twitter account is worth a follow.
     
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  8. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    Hmmm

    LobsterMagazine‏@LobsterMagazine 7h7 hours ago
    Also: A man named after a field ("paddock") shoots another man named after fields ("campos") then attacks a festival named "Harvest" - all in a city named Las Vegas ("The Meadows"). How bizarre is that? <shrug
     
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  9. gerhard1

    gerhard1 Ephemeral Spectre

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    You piqued my curiosity here, and I did some checking. According to Ms. Callimachi, ISIS has claimed credit for many such incidents, and all but a few of them have turned out to be true.

    Still, I'm not completely convinced of any ISIS involvement in the Las Vegas shooting.

    Be that as it may, here is a transcript of an interview she did with NPR.

    http://www.npr.org/2017/10/03/55542...alse-claims-could-signal-isis-fractured-state
     
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  10. McAvennie

    McAvennie Justified & Ancient

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    However, if he really was an ISIS recruit surely they would have some records of contact that they could release through their media channels to prove the US was lying by saying there was no link.

    Similar reasoning to Bin Laden’s death, if he was still alive, or at least not captured by the US, then surely Al Qaeda just realease an incontravenable video and embarrass the US.

    The fact neither has happened casts some doubt on both those theories.
     
  11. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Devoted Cultist

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    There are some pretty easy explanations for all of that. He earned millions in property deals - he was a trained accountant after all, so it is not hard to explain that he was good with money.

    He owned a few houses across the country - none of them ostentatious, but all fairly nice.

    He wired money to his GF in the Philippines because he knew he wouldn't see here again.

    The explosives were probably meant to be set off at some stage to cause even more carnage - he just didn't get around to it.

    My thinking is that many people are finding it hard to believe that "one of us" - a grumpy old white dude - would do a thing like that without any obvious motive.

    If however the Prostitute's tale of violent sex, and his confessions of having a dark side, are to be believed, then we have come a long way towards explaining his actions.
     
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  12. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    Callimachi discusses this. This has happened before with the Russian plane blown up out of Sharm el Sheikh - everyone pooh-poohed ISIS claims of responsibility and said that it was down to poor maintenance etc. Eventually ISIS released a picture of the device which brought down the plane and their claim was acknowledged.

    Curiously, ISIS has their own news agency (!) which apparently prizes itself on its credibility. The only major attack they have claimed falsely is one on a Filipino casino a couple of years ago.
     
  13. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Devoted Cultist

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    Really? Within days, most reputable news agencies reported that it was likely a bomb.

    But it would have been unusual for ISIS to claim something like this, that certainly is true. The reason is probably on Rukmini's twitter feed as well:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    Yeah, I can’t remember the precise timing of how long it took for the information to be released re: the Russian plane. But that doesn’t alter the point that ISIS’s original claim was dismissed until they provided proof.

    I suspect you’re correct in that they losses ISIS is suffering on the ground will make it more likely they will claim falsely, and a deadly attack such as this one they would certainly want credit for.

    I know a great many accountants and, whilst they make a nice living, the sort of lifestyle Paddock appeared to be pursuing would be completely out of the question for anyone who wasn’t a senior partner in a “Big Four” accountancy firm. There’s something else going on here. The only question is what.

    I think people are finding the lack of any obvious motive quite baffling, yes. Not because he is “one of us” but because he is rather old to fit the profile of either terrorist or spree killer, and to date no note or video or anything has been found by way of explanation.
     
  15. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    I think he's a classic example of 'sleeper agent'. Behaved himself until called upon by whomever his masters were, for a purpose he did not question. The real money came from them, not his conventional employment.
     
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  16. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Devoted Cultist

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    I'd say "where's the proof"? Surely there are bank records?
     
  17. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    Proof may come out in the fullness of time. May.
    There are ways and means to hide transactions. He was an accountant, don't forget.
     
  18. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    As I say, casinos are a popular if unsophisticated means of laundering money.

    It has been reported that he gambled $160,000 in recent months in Vegas casinos and also that 200 reports ha£ been filed about him by various entities in respect of large cash transactions.

    This doesn’t sound like earnings of a retired accountant.
     
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  19. hunck

    hunck Justified & Ancient

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    Strikes me as one of the more fanciful suggestions. What sort of organisation would require a sleeper agent to massacre 58 random people & injure a further 489 and why would a sleeper agent agree to do this then kill themself? To what end?
     
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  20. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    Yeah, not convinced by the “sleeper agent” thing. I did wonder if he was killed by the real shooter(s). But the logistics of this seems challenging.

    The whole thing is very strange as I say. None of it makes sense.
     
  21. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    I'm still trying to work that one out! :D
     
  22. Yithian

    Yithian Last Man Standing Staff Member

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    This case is very odd. As Forteans we know that this doesn't mean that the ostensible account can't be true, but it certainly sets off a lot of my suspicions and there are a host of unknowns at this stage.

    Inconsistencies in timeline/reporting:



    [If a substantial 'conspiracy/alternative narrative develops, I shall separate that element and initiate a new thread; in the meantime conversation can continue here]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  23. Anome

    Anome Bibliomancer

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    To paraphrase Bob Geldof, why should it make sense? The guy shot a bunch of people, then himself. It follows a fairly common pattern of mass shootings, it's just he was able to shoot more people than most.

    The problem people have is that it was an affluent old white guy. They can't connect him to ISIS or some other terrorist group because he's not Muslim. They can't discredit him with pictures of him dressed as a gang-banger because he's not black. He wasn't a disaffected young person who listened to Emo and played video games. There's nothing to blame for this apart from an old, rich, white guy with easy access to a lot of guns, and people are worried that if they can't find something else to blame it on, they may have to do something about old, rich, white guys and guns.

    I mean, at least if he were French or something, they could invade Belgium to stamp out European terrorism.

    As to why he did it, I don't think it was a conspiracy, or he was acting on behalf of a foreign government. Maybe he was selling guns in his hotel room, got caught by security, and panicked in the hope of covering his tracks (unlikely). Maybe he was set up by someone else who did the shooting, then framed him for it (not particularly likely). Or maybe he just snapped, and decided to kill a bunch of people on the Vegas strip (fairly likely). Until there's some actual evidence, everything else is just fantasy.
     
  24. Krepostnoi

    Krepostnoi Hoarse Bronzeman

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  25. Analis

    Analis Justified & Ancient

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    No, until now, it does not even appear remotely likely. The ordinary man, without trouble, antecedents, history of violence or mental illness, militantism, motive of any kind who abruptly chooses to slaughter people on the street just does'nt exist. Until then, we have been presented no evidence for any reason (Daesh claims notwithstanding, which don't appear to be backed up, except for the fact that they don't usually claim responsability fraudulently, but it should be taken into account that they are on the verge of being defeated), nor did we have a consistent account of the events (despite the presence of numerous security cameras), which begins to become even stranger than the already strange initial situation. Usually, information is available much sooner. But until we'll have something to support the 'snapping' theory, it will remain an unsupported theory/fantasy among others.
     
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  26. Coal

    Coal Sure, we're all wrong. Makes complete sense.

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    It's just easier to frame the incident as a conspiracy than face the cold hard reality that American culture generates these hideous incidents and the people that carry them out with a disturbing regularity.
     
  27. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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  28. gerhard1

    gerhard1 Ephemeral Spectre

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    Indeed. A strange case just got more so. There doesn't seem to be any clue as to the 'why'. That is what is so baffling and frustrating to me and many other Americans. With no criminal record, and no history of violence, it is very unusual for someone to commit a violent act, particularly towards complete strangers.

    And in this vein, here is something that I recently wrote on a US firearms forum.

    What I have always thought is that past behavior is the best indication of future behavior. It is rare for someone who is an easy-going person to become a violent person out of the blue. Short of a major outside occurrence, such as an extreme provocation, if you are of a generally mild temperament, that is how you will remain. On the other hand, a person with a genuinely nasty personality, will be the type the law-enforcement people will be involved with.

    An example might be family homicide. Generally the police will have been called to the same couple numerous times in the past to deal with DV and the pattern is that the violence tends to escalate over time. The final event is spousal homicide. OTOH, couples who get on well with each other rarely receive police attention and they almost never murder each other.

    Look at their past behavior to predict future patterns.


    Does Mr Otter not agree here?

    In the case of those convicted of domestic violence (the DV in the above quote) a good case could be made for barring firearms possession, and indeed, this is current US law.
     
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  29. GNC

    GNC King-Sized Canary

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    Some people just love the idea of shooting other people.
     
  30. jimv1

    jimv1 Analogue Boy

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    Indeed. And there have been many times I have thought of sticking coat hangers in people’s clothing and hanging them up on my wheelie clothes rail. The problem is, I’ll never get close to my sinister target of 50 because here in the UK, you get questioned if you buy more than 3 different types of clothes hanger and the police would turn up if you’re in possession of over thirty.

    Do you guys in the states have a limit on how many clothes hangers you can buy?
     

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