Time Or Dimensional Slips

Discussion in 'General Forteana' started by Anonymous, Feb 25, 2004.

  1. Ghost In The Machine

    Ghost In The Machine Abominable Snowman

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    Ah thanks, David! I don't remember a florin and wasn't sure if 5p/a bob was the only almost identical coin. That's the mythical one like 'a half crown' in my head - I sort of know the name of the coin but have no idea what it was worth or what it looked like!

    Developing some sort of way of categorising these timeslips, like we can see on this thread, would be helpful now to anyone interviewing someone who had experienced one, because it would help approach this with a bit more rigour. The coinage thing strikes me as an interesting example because the shilling/5p detail would be self evident in 1973, but might be lost to us now. But the devil is probably in the details with all these things, really.
     
  2. Dr_Baltar

    Dr_Baltar Justified & Ancient

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  3. henry

    henry still speeding

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    is this data now in a spreadsheet, or similar, which can be attached, or shared, as they say ?
     
  4. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    It is not. I have begun putting things into report form on this thread, using a common set of terms and types which Carl Grove and myself have been working on. But it is not in a spreadsheet or database form as of yet.

    If anybody were interested in assisting doing that, of course? The idea would be to use these reports as data for those.

    What we have so far is listed below:

    UK & Ireland

    Liverpool:

    The shopfront from another time: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-22#post-1720792 post #644

    Edwardians in Liverpool City Centre: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-23#post-1722099 post #687


    London:

    Phantom Cafe at Piccadilly Station: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-27#post-1725170 & http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-27#post-1725171 Posts #808 & 809

    Timeslip at Waterloo Station: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-28#post-1725360 Post #822


    Devon:


    The Best Kept Village of 1976: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-22#post-1721424 post #657


    Berkshire:

    Timeslip at Windsor Rail Station: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-23#post-1721863 Post #682


    Norfolk:

    A Furious Coachman in King’s Lynn: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-24#post-1722370 Post #702

    A Stationery Moment in Time: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-25#post-1723056 Post #728


    Surrey:

    A Phantom Public House: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-24#post-1722864 Post #708


    The Isle of Wight:

    The Pub that Vanished: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-26#post-1723859 Post #757

    Another Vanishing Pub: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-26#post-1723860 post #758

    The vanishing pub with theatrical owners: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-26#post-1723861 post #759



    Outside the UK:

    Europe:

    France:

    The Avignon Rural Hotel: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-22#post-1720791 post #643


    Caribbean:

    Haiti:

    Seeing Paris in Haiti: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-23#post-1721855 Post #681


    America:

    Iowa:

    A lift home from 10 years earlier: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-24#post-1722876 Post #712

    Texas:

    The Timeslipped Convenience Store: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/time-or-dimensional-slips.13755/page-27#post-1724756 Post# 797


    I'll try to update this post with each new report added, but obviously it will take some time. Likewise if anybody happens to dispute a detail or spots an error, let me know. I'll modify the report.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017 at 2:25 PM
  5. Coal

    Coal Gentleman, scholar, acrobat.

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    I might be worth investigating how to get data into SQL in the long run.

    It's also worth, when parsing transcribed accounts for data points, using peer review, which is to say, have two (at least) people extract the data from the accounts and then compare notes. You're undertaking a form of discourse analysis and without peer review, comparison and discussion, this can easily be way way too subjective.
     
  6. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    In the long run, yes. But that's beyond my expertise. So standardising for others to work with is what's on offer.

    The reports posted up are a collaborative thing. If anybody wishes to dispute anything listed in a report please do let me know.

    But this is not a scientific process. It is method of recording stories and connecting them where relevant. :)
     
  7. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    LOCATION:
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    The Pub that Vanished


    Location:
    Isle of Wight

    Date: November 1982

    Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

    Persons Involved: Laurie West

    Number of Persons Involved: 2

    Interactions:


    • Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
    • Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
    • Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
    • Sensory –Subject tastes or consumes food or drink.

    Source of Testimony: Gay Baldwin’s series of Isle of Wight eBooks - http://www.ghostisland.com

    Description:

    On a night in November 1982, Laurie West and an unknown friend set out from Newtown, on the Isle of Wight. At some point in their evening they hey came upon a pub named either ‘the Falcon’ or ‘the Vulcan’.

    The bar was apparently quite old-fashioned, felt unwelcoming and cold. As Laurie and friend entered a number patrons were said to have turned their eyes towards them and their previous conversations ceased.

    They ordered drinks but drank them swiftly and left. The beer apparently tasted bad or ‘off’.

    The pub was located along a narrow lane somewhere between Newtown and Calbourne. They did try to find it again on separate occasions, but were not successful. Neither the lane nor pub were located again.


    Notes: This tale is repeated and retold across a number of ghost story sites online. The similarity of phrasing in each version could be suspicious enough to consider it as creepypasta.

    However, the key difference with Gay Baldwin’s book is that in all other telling of the story no names or dates are supplied. She provides a source (Laurie West) and the date of November 1982.

    In an article about another similar case (from a different book of her) she describes West:

    When Laurie West originally contacted me about his encounter that night, it wasn’t with the intention of having his story printed - in fact he was most reluctant to do so - it was to find out if anyone else had reported a similar experience. Nobody had - until now. (You can read Laurie West’s account of The Pub that Vanished in More Ghosts of the Isle of Wight.)

    The similar case she is referring to is that of Wendy and Gary Lacey, who had a similar experience with an Isle of Wight pub which they never managed to find again.

    Likewise FTMB forum member Anonentity claims to have had a similar experience back in 1969. Although he believed his experience to have more in common with the Lacey’s account than this one.

    He did however also posit that:

    I am fairly sure the Vulcan was a pub which has long closed down, outside of Carisbrooke which was up on the hills before you went out on the road to the Shalfleet Brighstone area, It was usually called the Forge, because that was what it originally was. It had a few football tables and a bowling area.

    Discussion over that prompted Ghughesarch to mention that:

    There was (and still is) a pub called the Blacksmith's Arms, which maps of c1900 show was originally a smithy, roughly where you describe, on the Calbourne road out of Carisbrooke.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...03&h=100&yaw=37.340668&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

    blacksmiths.png

    And also that:

    Every version of this Isle of Wight story does seem to be explicable as confusion arising from approaching the Blacksmith's Arms at Calbourne from the appropriately named Betty Haunt Lane, which runs south from the Forest Road to Calbourne Road aka Middle Road, which are parallel and quite similar in general character - except one has a pub on it and the other does not. They are linked by several similar-looking minor lanes but only Betty Haunt Lane gives you a view of the pub on the approach with the gravelled car park in front.

    There is no trace of any pub called either Falcon or Vulcan in that part of the island on any map I've seen between the 1880s and the present day - The Blacksmith's Arms does fit the bill, I wonder if it ever had an image of Vulcan on its sign?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...4!1s_EiDRHO6mb-y6FvXg3jzVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


    blacksmiths3.png

    blacksmiths2.png
     
  8. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    Another Vanishing Pub


    Location: Isle of Wight

    Date: Summer 1990

    Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

    Persons Involved: Wendy and Gary Lacey.

    Number of Persons Involved: 2

    Interactions:


    • Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
    • Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
    • Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
    • Sensory –Subject tastes or consumes food or drink.

    Source of Testimony: Gay Baldwin’s series of Isle of Wight eBooks - http://www.ghostisland.com And the sample used in the description is from here: http://www.ghostisland.com/latest-stories-and-pictures?gid=25

    Description: I’ll quote directly from the post on Gay Baldwin’s site (up to the pay to read more point):

    In 1992 I wrote a strange and intriguing story about ‘The Pub That Wasn’t There’ This mysterious inn, somewhere between Newtown and Calbourne, has never been seen again since two Island friends dropped in there for a drink, one dark November night in 1982. Many readers are fascinated by this tale and more than a few have even tried to find it for themselves. I suppose a ghost-pub crawl is a good way to spend an evening and come home sober!

    When Laurie West originally contacted me about his encounter that night, it wasn’t with the intention of having his story printed - in fact he was most reluctant to do so - it was to find out if anyone else had reported a similar experience. Nobody had - until now. (You can read Laurie West’s account of The Pub that Vanished in More Ghosts of the Isle of Wight.)

    Once again this new story came to me in a roundabout way, via a friend of a friend. I wasn’t approached directly; in fact Wendy and Gary Lacey were initially surprised and dismayed that I wanted to talk to them about it. However, they finally agreed to meet me and for almost two hours we talked, going over their account in exhaustive detail. It bears certain similarities to Laurie’s story, but there are many essential differences, as you will see.

    It was early one summer’s evening in 1990 and the couple who now live at Hazel Close in Upper Ventnor, had just dropped their young son Robert off at Corfe Scout Camp near Newtown. The weather was fine so they drove back via Yarmouth, where they intended to have a meal. However they were too early and the restaurants weren’t yet open.

    “We continued out of Yarmouth, past Chessell and Brook, towards Shorwell. Somewhere, between Brook and Brighstone, at between 5pm and 6pm we stopped off at a pub. It was similar to but was definitely not, the Sun Inn at Hulverstone. The two-storey stone building, which had a slate roof, was decorated with a string of old-fashioned electric light bulbs, and there was an empty gravelled area at the side, where Gary parked our old Metro.

    “From where we left the car we could see fields and the Downs. We could hear birds singing, for remarkably, there was no traffic passing on the road. It was a strange place,” said Wendy. “Gary who works as a postman has lived on the Isle of Wight all his life, and I’ve grown up here too. We both know our way around the Island pretty well – and where all the pubs are! However, this was not one we had ever seen before. We stood outside, in two minds whether or not to go in. Then Gary said, ‘Let’s go for it,’ and we pushed the front door open and stepped inside. Buy Most Haunted Island NOW to read more.....of this incredible story

    Carl Grove purchased said book and relayed the following:

    ...without going into too much detail, the Laceys hesitated to enter the pub, since Gary, a postman, knew the area well and knew there should be no pub there.

    They went in to find a large, old fashioned room with old blue lino. Although it was warm outside it felt chilly there. The landlord in a checked shirt and trousers belted high on his waist and his Mrs (presumably) in a similarly outdated style. They had no wine but sold Wendy a cider and Gary a beer. They had no crisps or any other food. The change seemed wrong, but it wasn't until they left that they discovered it had old pennies in it.

    The sound quality seemed muted. The other customers, about 20 of them, all farming types in older style clothes, stared at them. Wendy, in jeans, felt out of place. They stayed only long enough to finish their drinks, 15 mins, then left. The road was still empty, and they drove to Brighstone, where there were cars and people and life, and it seemed as if they had wakened from a dream.


    Notes:

    The earlier case Gay Baldwin is speaking of is covered by the Report here:

    The Pub That Vanished

    In 2016 FTMB poster Anonentity mentioned that this account seemed very similar to his own vanishing pub experience.

    The Wendy and Gary Lacey ,seems to be a dead ringer for what we saw, I only read the story up to the part when they went in, were talking a twenty year difference in times.

    ...the Wendy and Gary report, up until they went in was exactly as we saw it with the coloured lights the gravel area etc. I actually thought it might be a sort of trick where they might have opened the pub when they felt like a bit of fun, but as reported we never found it again

    Anonentity also tried contacting the Laceys via Facebook. It was never answered as to whether he was successful, and Anonentity has not been active on these boards since late in 2016.
     
  9. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    The Vanishing Pub with theatrical owners


    Location: The Isle of Wight

    Date: Roughly 1969.

    Type: Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

    Persons Involved: FTMB poster Anonentity and his wife.

    Number of Persons Involved: 2

    Interactions:

    • Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
    • Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
    • Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
    • Sensory –Subject tastes or consumes food or drink.
    Source of Testimony: This very thread. Post #314

    Description: To quote:

    I was always a bit worried as to whether to post this experience, I don't want to appear fanciful but it was only a few years back that the suspicion started growing that this experience might have been a genuine dimensional slip.

    Back in about 1969 I was living on the Isle of Wight. My wife and I decided to go out pubbing, so we drove out along the Forest road, then did a right turn, down a country road, about 7pm, we noticed a pub in the twilight, it had lights, a porch and a parking area made of gravel, we went in off the main road and parked, and went into the pub, we were the only car in the park, we had to stoop down as it seemed very old fashioned, did a left turn at the main door and ended up in a public bar, with pictures of the patrons on the walls, we were told they were theatrical. In fact we had a great night, the hostess who claimed to be eighty ended up doing a dance on the table.

    About ten we left, and went home. The next week we thought that we had such a great time we would retrace our route and do the same again. The funny thing was, we spent about an hour going up and down the same road, and we never found that pub again. So we went to another one and let it be, I think we might have looked again a few times but with no luck.

    Then many years later, I came across some stories about some other people that had the same experience, in the same area, they were reported in Ghost stories, of the Isle of Wight.

    I genuinely am at a loss to explain this. The fact that the Pub was quite full, but we were the only car in the Park. In fact it seemed like a genuine Country Pub, how the heck you can loose a pub on roads you have been up and down most of your life seems strange to me. But the older I get the weirder it gets.


    Notes:

    Anonentity does note that he felt it was unusual that the pub was filled with customers despite theirs being the only car in the car park. Although it is unclear how far this pub was from other houses or places of work, for those who chose to frequent it to have traveled from.

    On hearing this account Carl Grove posted that he had also heard of two other accounts of similar ‘vanishing pubs’ on the Isle of Wight:

    I found summaries of those two other vanishing pub cases, one in Nov 1982 involving a pub called the Vulcan or Falcon on a lane running left from the Newtown to Shalfleet Road. About 15 patrons in the public bar stopped talking and stared at the two witnesses. The drinks tasted bad and they left, and never could find the lane again.

    The second, in Summer 1990, involved a couple, Wendy and Gary Lacey who found a pub between Brook and Brighstone also with a gravel area outside.

    The first of these cases is covered by The Pub That Vanished.

    The second in Another Vanishing Pub

    The former of these two seemed to jog Anonentity’s memory:

    I am fairly sure the Vulcan was a pub which has long closed down, outside of Carisbrooke which was up on the hills before you went out on the road to the Shalfleet Brighstone area, It was usually called the Forge, because that was what it originally was. It had a few football tables and a bowling area.


    You can find a number of near identical versions of the Vulcan/Falcon Pub legend online. For example, this one from Ghosts and Hauntings.co.uk

    You may possibly never ever find this one, but have enjoyable trying! One dark November night, two Island guys set out from Newtown, on what became the strangest night of their lives. They came upon a pub – the Falcon or the Vulcan – where they shared a drink with some unsociable spirits. The drab bar felt unwelcoming and cold. Hostile eyes turned towards the two strangers and all conversation ceased. They drank up swiftly and left. The strange old-fashioned pub, which was along a narrow lane someplace between Newtown and Calbourne, has never ever been seen once again. In spite of repeated attempts, neither the lane nor ghostly pub has ever been located.


    The fact Google yields so many versions of this tale with near identical text, and lack of credible sourcing, may suggest this to be more likely as a ghost story or urban legend. However Gay Baldwin claims to have had this story (which she named ‘The Pub That Vanished’ – Report linked to above) told to here by the man who experienced it (one Laurie West). It is included in her book More Ghosts of the Isle of Wight.


    Anonentity did feel that the second account had more common ground with his own experience though:

    The Wendy and Gary Lacey ,seems to be a dead ringer for what we saw, I only read the story up to the part when they went in, were talking a twenty year difference in times.

    But I can remember it clearly , how many eighty year olds get up on a table and start dancing, she had a good pair of legs as well. She was a redhead, and the bar had pictures of her and her husband during their theatrical days. The Patrons were gregarious and offered the information that they were a theatrical couple...

    ...the Wendy and Gary report, up until they went in was exactly as we saw it with the coloured lights the gravel area etc. I actually thought it might be a sort of trick where they might have opened the pub when they felt like a bit of fun, but as reported we never found it again.


    Carl Grove pointed out that most of the Laceys testimony was actually behind the paywall of Gay Baldwin’s book. Which he then purchased in order to relay more information from:


    ...without going into too much detail, the Laceys hesitated to enter the pub, since Gary, a postman, knew the area well and knew there should be no pub there.

    They went in to find a large, old fashioned room with old blue lino. Although it was warm outside it felt chilly there. The landlord in a checked shirt and trousers belted high on his waist and his Mrs (presumably) in a similarly outdated style. They had no wine but sold Wendy a cider and Gary a beer. They had no crisps or any other food. The change seemed wrong, but it wasn't until they left that they discovered it had old pennies in it.

    The sound quality seemed muted. The other customers, about 20 of them, all farming types in older style clothes, stared at them. Wendy, in jeans, felt out of place. They stayed only long enough to finish their drinks, 15 mins, then left. The road was still empty, and they drove to Brighstone, where there were cars and people and life, and it seemed as if they had wakened from a dream.


    Discussion over Anonentity’s mention of the Vulcan pub once having been called ‘The Forge’ started up a second line of conversation. Ghughesarch noted that:


    There was (and still is) a pub called the Blacksmith's Arms, which maps of c1900 show was originally a smithy, roughly where you describe, on the Calbourne road out of Carisbrooke.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6891354,-1.3430288,3a,75y,304.67h,79.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saNcJTTG318x31NG7cjx7bA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DaNcJTTG318x31NG7cjx7bA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D37.340668%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

    [​IMG]

    And also that:

    Every version of this Isle of Wight story does seem to be explicable as confusion arising from approaching the Blacksmith's Arms at Calbourne from the appropriately named Betty Haunt Lane, which runs south from the Forest Road to Calbourne Road aka Middle Road, which are parallel and quite similar in general character - except one has a pub on it and the other does not. They are linked by several similar-looking minor lanes but only Betty Haunt Lane gives you a view of the pub on the approach with the gravelled car park in front.

    There is no trace of any pub called either Falcon or Vulcan in that part of the island on any map I've seen between the 1880s and the present day - The Blacksmith's Arms does fit the bill, I wonder if it ever had an image of Vulcan on its sign?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6...4!1s_EiDRHO6mb-y6FvXg3jzVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Anonentity remained certain though, that the pub presented was not that which he visited. He was also asked if he could remember more about the woman he had been seen dancing on the table.


    I cant remember her name, i've got the feeling she was with the wartime entertainment corps. If she was eighty in nineteen seventy, She might have been at the end of her career, around the war years.


    As a final note, Anonentity tried to approach Wendy and Gary Lacey (from the earlier vanishing pub account) via Facebook. At last posting he had sent them request, but was yet to hear anything back. Unfortunately Anonentity has been absent from the FTMB since autumn 2016, so further news on whether he did receive contact is unlikely at this point.
     
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  10. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    As all three of those do have plausible connections I made sure to add the all at roughly the same time, and linked to each other in the notes field.
     
  11. David Plankton

    David Plankton Justified & Ancient

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    This is a site that may come in useful, The Lost Pubs Project.
    http://closedpubs.co.uk/

    Isle of Wight page doesn't have any Falcons, Vulcans or even Falchions but you can check it here

    http://closedpubs.co.uk/hampshire/isleofwight.html
     
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  12. Naughty_Felid

    Naughty_Felid No longer interesting

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  13. ghughesarch

    ghughesarch Junior Acolyte

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    Regarding the Plough Inn at Beddington, a look back on the Old Maps website
    https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/530500/165500/12/100555
    shows that as far back as 1876 the main building of the pub was on Croydon Road. The outbuilding (probably originally stables) which partly survives on the west side of the plot previously extended down to the southern corner of the preset day beer garden but was reduced in length sometime between 1913 and 1933.
    The main pub building as it exists today dates entirely from the 1890s rebuilding and does not incorporate any part of the earlier structure. The maps also show that, contrary to the impression given by old photos, the pub did not stand alone - there were other buildings on either side of Plough Lane, again back to at least 1876.
     
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  14. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    Hi ghughesarch,

    Excellent work. I hope Rosebud sees this, because over the past few days (through compiling all those past images and trying to make them match up with the recent past) the one thing nagging at the back of my mind was that for all we had found relating to The Plough we hadn't found the one thing we were looking for.

    Evidence of any kind of structure at that southern most corner, which plausibly could have been an entrance to the pub.

    Now granted this is the outbuilding we're talking about here (which in modern times has a huge advertising hoarding on its rear side when you view it in Streetview). But it is something.

    Thanks for looking into it. :)
     
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  15. henry

    henry still speeding

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    i could, but doesnt look like we can upload any suitable file types

     
  16. henry

    henry still speeding

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    comma-separated text file maybe, not very elegant though ...
     
  17. ghughesarch

    ghughesarch Junior Acolyte

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    I'm afraid I don;t think it is plausibly an entrance to the pub - it's a separate outbuilding on one side of the pub yard, where the punters would not have been expected to go. The entrance for customers would have been in the pub proper, facing the main road.
     
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  18. Rosebud

    Rosebud Ephemeral Spectre

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    The research and formatting work you are doing is great - a real pleasure to read. :)

    You are right, there is no trace of a building on that part of the site, yet I saw it. I partly based my estimation of time period (1950's/60's) on the condition of the road, in that if there had been anything unusual about it I would have noticed, but tarmac has been around for 115 years! Patented in 1902. If the houses further along the road were also part of the timeslip then it must have been post-1930's.

    On a slight tangent, I wonder if the prevalence of dash cams, helmet cams and body cams will eventually yield some kind of solid evidence? If so, it would be a real breakthrough.
     
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  19. PeteS

    PeteS Ephemeral Spectre

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    An intriguing idea- what would a dash cam have "seen"?
     
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  20. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    The existence of a recording could provide what most would accept as solid evidence.

    However, there's no reason to presume such presumptively compelling evidence would be more likely to support the notion of:

    (a) a demonstrable slipping of the observer into a different time and / or place; rather than ...

    (b) demonstrable slippage in the observer's perceptual acuity / mental faculties (or 'slipperiness' in describing / reporting the incident).

    It cuts both ways ... Be careful what you wish for ...

    In any case ...

    The first time someone came forward claiming a slip, only to have a recording show no indication of such a thing, it wouldn't close the issue.

    True believers would generate some excuse to keep believing (e.g., 'the camera can only record the natural; only a human can perceive the supernatural'). The uncertainty and debate would continue, playing out in ever more complex / convoluted forms, just as we've seen with other Fortean subjects.
     
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  21. PeteS

    PeteS Ephemeral Spectre

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    And of course you would get the inevitable CGI accusations.
     
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  22. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    In any field like this there is the "holy grail" kind of thinking -- "If only we had a photo/exotic physical evidence/an event on the White House lawn, etc., then the case would be proven." Anyone familiar with UFOs will know how fallacious the logic is. Despite photos, films, multiple witness cases, a variety of physical data, simultaneous radar-visual sightings, there is enough wriggle-room for anyone to find ways of dismissing the evidence. Time slips would be in exactly the same boat. It would be great to get photos or other physical evidence, but I would be happy to get multiple witness cases where (1) all witnesses agree on the events; (2) there are witnesses to both ends of the slip, e.g. the shop assistant at Leeds, Jedite's elderly couple, the identification of other potential witnesses in some of the Liverpool cases; (3) historical research confirms unlikely or unknown details seen by the witnesses. The plastic bags in the Squirrel case, and the paper bag that disintegrated in a few days, could have been highly significant if given a thorough chemical examination, but of course that never happened. And even if irrefutable physical evidence was available, the response of the scientific establishment would probably be to shrug and ignore it. Look at the Hutchison effect, for example.
     
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  23. henry

    henry still speeding

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    does that even exist ? at some level maybe ...

    arent we all looking for a personal experience of some kind, and if weve had one, trying to make some sense of it
     
  24. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    No, I think it's a fantasy. Look at Hutchison's results, physically impossible things (iron melting at room temperature, metal changing into wood, levitation, transmutation). Investigations by numerous official agencies, all of them concluding that the effect is real. But because he can't do things exactly to order, the scientific community ignore him.

    I have had a lot of personal experiences, but never a time slip, and I have no particular desire to have one. I just want to find out what is going on. I suspect that the people who want the vital smoking gun that proves its existence basically want their belief system reinforced.
     
  25. henry

    henry still speeding

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  26. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    There are multiple facets to the 'irrefutable' bit ...

    The vast majority of time slip incidents I've read about are throwbacks to a past time. Such retrospective shifts are unavoidably hard to prove with ordinary physical objects or materials from an allegedly prior timeframe because the claimant's evidence is by definition already presumed to have existed.

    Phrased another way ... How does one demonstrate irrefutability of collection timeframe for evidence that's admittedly old? How does one prove the evidence was freshly collected yesterday, versus its having been pulled out of Granny's trunk in the attic?

    Radiocarbon dating isn't precise enough to reliably demonstrate an artifact created in (e.g.) 1917 tests as being 100 years too 'young'.

    One very telling benchmark would be the absence of radioisotopic uptake that could only have be occurred from the mid-1940's onward (from open-air nuclear testing). However, this would require proving the object had been in a position / location where uptake would have unavoidably occurred unless it had 'skipped' forward in time.

    It seems to me the primary problem isn't so much demonstrating age as demonstrating provenance and / or chain of custody are solely explicable by extraordinary circumstances.

    My gut feeling is that this makes for a burden of proof that dwarfs that faced by UFO claimants.
     
  27. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    That's a brilliant notion about radio isotopes, something I never thought of! There may be other similar data that could bear on the issue. Another factor might be the information developed from future time slips. While there are few accounts of witness interchanges with people from the future, I can think of a number where specific comments are made about (e.g.) future buildings and road surfaces. I can also recall a Liverpool case where the witness (under the influence of alcohol and drinamyl) claimed to enter a future time and was helped by a lady dressed in a very strange fashion. He claims that over the years, fashions akin to the lady's have become more prominent. He also described a shopping centre that has since been built, and another building that does not now exist under the name he saw. If that building is renamed... I suppose you could then argue that the owner of the building simply saw the witness's account and decided to "confirm" it!

    Very difficult to demonstrate an unconventional provenance, but who knows?

    Maybe if we could produce a time slip in the laboratory, that would be more convincing.
     
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  28. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    It's human nature, but it's often a substitute for serious research.
     
  29. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    It's a very tricky business once you start dealing with the details. There are numerous dating techniques, but each one has specific requirements and limitations with regard to type(s) of testable material, reliability of testing procedure, precision of results, etc., etc. Some tests are specific to organic materials from living organisms. Others might be applicable to some (but not all) non-organic materials.

    Even if anyone were able to plan in advance for a time slip, they'd need a massive handbook to help them figure out what should be collected - both in terms of physical evidence to bring back and other evidence relating solely to provenance and / or chain of custody.

    Any testing would be by definition intended to prove that something wasn't as aged (by the passage of time) as other evidence would indicate it would have to be. In effect, the desired result would be anomalous in the context of the testing, and the reasonable (as opposed to dogmatic ... ) response could only be to claim the testing must have been screwed or skewed.
     
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  30. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    I wonder if, in those cases where people have bought items in shops or had food or drinks in cafes or pubs, and were given change, that DNA might be recovered. I'm not sure how that might help except maybe in identifying the vendor and possibly finding him (if still alive) or his relations... We also have the cases where drivers have reportedly bought petrol which might be analysed for such things as lead content or other chemicals. Time Slip Forensics?
     

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