The Nazis & the Occult

Discussion in 'Esoterica' started by Mighty_Emperor, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. Mighty_Emperor

    Mighty_Emperor Beloved of Ra

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    There isn't a general thread on this so here it goes.

    Some older and possibly relevant threads (or not):

    http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5588

    http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5234

    http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8749

    http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13044

    Sooooooooo my question:

    Was Himmler a zombie?

    Well OK its closer to why would anyone think he was? The Unexplained has a section on Nazis and the occult (MoMS&T - vol 17) and this bit attracted my attention:

    I suspect it probably comes from:

    J. H. Brennan, The Occult Reich (New York:Signet, 1974)

    Anyone got any further information?

    I have a copy of Trevor Ravenscroft's "The Spear of Destiny" which I assume is along similarish lines and really is a load of old cobblers.

    Are there any sensible books actually examining the wildness of the field?

    I stumbled across this review of "The Occult Roots of Nazism" by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (1985):

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p121_Grimstad.html

    I also found this interesting essay at the Simon Weisenthal Center:

    http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual3/chap09.html

    There is a letter published in FT on Blavatsky and the right wing in FT181: 71 (by one of the FTMBers).
     
  2. Jerry_B

    Jerry_B Antediluvian

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  3. Alexius4

    Alexius4 Justified & Ancient

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    The late Geraid Suster wrote a book on the topic from a Thelemic perspective entitled 'Hitler & the Age of Horus'.

    I believe it may be out of print, but a scouring of disreputable bookshops around Charing Cross may come up trumps...:)
     
  4. Mal_Adjusted

    Mal_Adjusted Justified & Ancient

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    Hi

    the Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke is the best that i'm aware of.

    the paperback edition 2004 published by Tauis Parke has an appendix "The modern mythology of nazi occultism". it gives a run down of other writings in this area.

    suggest you give ravenscroft a miss unless you're studying the development of the myths surrounding this subject.

    richard @
     
  5. Mighty_Emperor

    Mighty_Emperor Beloved of Ra

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    Thanks for the tips.

    It was only a quid or so in a second hand bookshop and I thought I'd go for some really out there theories but it isn't even a series of facts strung together into some wild theory it is virtually a work of fiction based on various psychic readings. A big disappointment.
     
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I read something about Aleister Crowley supposedly being brought in by the British Army to help counteract the Magic being used by certain Nazi's.

    I believe it's in "The Secrets of Aleister Crowley" - Author being one Amado Crowley, who claims to be the formers illegitimate son.
    Quite a good read - all in all - Especially the story about Crowley and the British Army.

    Having said that though.. i just found this which doesn't speak too highly of said book - lol

    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/amado.html
     
  7. Mighty_Emperor

    Mighty_Emperor Beloved of Ra

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    Its being discussed in the fourth link in my first post:

    http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13044

    The story does sound distinctly shakey but any extra information you have would be handy ;)
     
  8. Philo_T

    Philo_T Justified & Ancient

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    Hopefully this won't derail the thread....

    But I was wondering how much of this "NAZI occultisim" mythology is the product of 60's men's magazines? From what I've seen, there seems to been a lot of "Sex slaves of the SS" type stuff out there for a while. Could a lot of these unsubstatiated vaporings have originated from such places?

    Ex: http://www.lileks.com/institute/stagworld/fmo0963/1.html
     
  9. Alexius4

    Alexius4 Justified & Ancient

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    Well, there is a lot of evidence linking the core Nazi leadership to the Volkischer movements, and Himmler's design of Wewelsburg Castle is testament in stone to his Pseudo-Templar aspirations.

    On the other hand, other key figures like Heidrich and Goebells seem to have been completely uninterested in any of that.

    I guess the it comes down to the Nazi elite being an unlikely blend of technocrats, cynics and wide-eyed romantics, that somehow managed to function.
     
  10. Jerry_B

    Jerry_B Antediluvian

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    There also ties bewteen rather dodgy Nazi archaeologists and the New Age movement.
     
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Rudolf Hess may even have been an emissary of the Thule cult, attempting to retrieve that which they believed was contained in the vaults of Rosslyn chapel - but missing it by miles and instead landing in a field outside East Kilbride.
     
  12. nambo2

    nambo2 Junior Acolyte

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    I was told Hitler was used as a spirit medium as a child, wiether true or not I dont know, but reading how he came to power can well belive he had some sort of supernatural help to get where he got and the result of which :- the destruction of those that used to be Gods own people, the Jews.
    Whatever, he certainly was trying to do what Jesus said he would do when he brings his kingdom, a Thousand year raine where Humans would be brought to perfection with no sickness or old age, his idea of perfect humans differed somewhat from Jesus, likewise his means of iradicating sickness and old age.
    Does Fuerer not also mean Messiah?

    I belive Hitler was just a puppet used by evil higher powers, a bit like most polititians really.
     
  13. Jerry_B

    Jerry_B Antediluvian

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    'Fuhrer' means 'leader' - 'messiah' means something else ('annointed by God') and thus the two concepts aren't at all similar. As for Hitler being some sort of Christian knight against the Jews, that's not really the case.

    What are 'higher powers'? Why is it not possible grasp that Hitler did what he did simply because they were his own ideas? I think that blaming something/something else tries to hide from the concept of that an ordinary human being can do such things, given the oppurtunity. For some it goes towards bad, constructive things - for others useful, constructive things.
     
  14. nambo2

    nambo2 Junior Acolyte

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    Hi Jerry, I was looking to see if I could find anything to back up my claim to Fuhrer can also mean Messiah when I found this http://www.raptureme.com/terry/james10.html
    The first three paragraphs show the view I gave is not just limited to me, though I dont know what he then goes on about.

    Yes, I agree with you regarding Hitlers hatred of the Jews, a lot of the Germans felt the Jews had a major role in Germany surrendering a war she was winning and harboured an early hatred in Hitlers mind, nonetheless, if you read how Hitler came to power, he wasnt just voted in, a lot of events seemed to go his way and if there is an occult, (the subject of this thread), then it would follow that there is a Satan, and he certainly hates anything God holds or held dear, so why wouldnt he use somebody that allready shared his views in order to destroy the Jews and to create his own evil version of his enemy Jesus Kingdom?
     
  15. Jerry_B

    Jerry_B Antediluvian

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    Hmm, that article makes a great deal out of one German word - a word which doesn't have as many connotations as it's author assumes it has. So it's not really a good argument IMHO.

    Implying that Hitler rose to power was somehow down to something strange (i.e. 'occult' influences) is a bit naiive IMHO. If one takes into account the political state of Germany after WW1 and the during the inter-war years, it's quite clear how Hitler and the Nazis came to power.

    Sure, there are 'occult' elements to some parts of Naziism - this doesn't make them real factors that have anything of substance at all. Various Nazis were interested in all sorts of odd stuff, and weren't beyond making up things to suit their ideology. This doesn't mean that any of it was anything more than misguided and misinformed ideas, based on other misguided an misinformed ideas.

    Lastly, to bring in the whole religious angle is to make the very big assumption that (a) God (as described in the Bible) exists, and (b) Judaism/Christianity are the thus the only 'true' religions in the whole of human history. Somehow, their version of things is the right one - which is open to question. It also implies that anti-Jewish ideology has a basis in something concrete, which is also not the case. It arose due to alot of crass ignorance, like all forms of bigotry.
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Then a 'Wanderführer ' isn't a walker's travel guide at all, it's a walking messiah!

    Really, I think you'll find that 'führer' really is a mostly a 'leader', or 'guide' in German and can be applied to things that give direction as well as dictators.

    :)

    http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=Wanderführer&spell=1
     
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    in 1960, Louis Pawles and Jacques Bergier published the book Dawn of the Magicians (Le Matin des Magiciens), one section of which popularized the image of Nazi occultism. Pawles and Bergier also founded the French magazine Planete, which published a lot of science fiction, particularly Lovecraft.
     
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I read that book, in translation, decades ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. Even then large pinches of salt were necessary, but a great read.

    If I remember correctly, it mentioned the Nazi belief in a solid Universe of eternal ice, containing firey bubbles in which places like the solar system could exist and of an eternal struggle between the prinicples of Fire and Ice. It seemed to lead on to Nazi expeditions to the South pole, to do experiments to bounce radio signals off the inside of the bubble of ice containing the Solar System and even a belief in the 'Hollow Earth Theory.'

    That book is also the place where, amongst other wonderful things, I first came across the possibity of a special kind of 'poly-water,' which had a sort of memory of materials which had previously been dissolved in it.
     
  19. MrRING

    MrRING Justified & Ancient

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    Nazi Witchcraft?

    Saw this blurb about a new indy horror film that had an interesting tidbit (which I'll bold):

    http://newsroom.eworldwire.com/view_release.php?id=11273

    So - anybody got an idea what this is going to be about? Is it well known, or a Blair Witch-tyle ballyhoo, or what?
     
  20. illuminati37411

    illuminati37411 Devoted Cultist

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    Has anyone here read "The Occult and the Third Reich," by "Jean-Michel Angebert" (a pseudonym, I have read, for the aforementioned Bergiers and Pauwels). Orignally written in French and translated into English, it is out of print and rather expensive used if you can find it. The book seems to be a bit of a re-hash of "In the Court of Lucifer," by Otto Rahn, a book only available in French. He was a Nazi who ended up getting offed when he was too much trouble.

    The book was translated into English by a fellow who was my French prof long ago in college, and quite an interesting fellow he was, "much older than he looked," as he liked to say! But I was very gullible then. For anyone who has the book, the photo of "Otto Rahn" in the caverns of Southern France is most decidedly *not* Otto Rahn, but my old French prof, altho much younger, & he denied it with a mysterious smile. There are photos of Otto Rahn now on the internet, and it's sure not *him*.
     
  21. Anafranil

    Anafranil Junior Acolyte

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    Not read this book, but I've started reading The Nazis and the Occult - by D. Shakar (spelling?) Have you read this? And, if so did you think well researched etc etc?
     
  22. illuminati37411

    illuminati37411 Devoted Cultist

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    Not read this book, but I've started reading The Nazis and the Occult - by D. Shakar (spelling?) Have you read this? And, if so did you think well researched etc etc

    I don't think I've read that one yet -- is it a new book? It's possible I read it a while back.

    Did anyone get to see the show on the Nazis and Occult on History Channel last month? I taped it but then forgot and taped over it. It had a woman named Dusty Scklar or Schklar or something who wrote one book a few years back. Hmmm, is that the author of your book? Gad, I think it is. Yes, now I remember. I have read it and it isn't >quite< as good as the Angebert book. I knew I had read them all at one time or another. The brain starts to slip.
     
  23. Hospitaller

    Hospitaller Ephemeral Spectre

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    Nicholas Goodricke-Clarke seems to have done the most scholarly treatment of this topic in "The Occult Roots of Nazism" http://tinyurl.com/99rom(on my to buy list) and "Black Sun" (on my bookshelf), subtitled: "Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity" http://tinyurl.com/dk2pv. Black Sun is fascinating and it would seem that "The Occult Roots of Nazism" is mainly about the Ariosophists.
     
  24. Anafranil

    Anafranil Junior Acolyte

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    Thats' the book. I flicked through the pages and the book seems (using my brief flick as a rule) to have a constant theme. The theme being all occult groups and organisations are/or potential Nazis.

    But it's best I read the book first before I pass judgement.

    The author mentions Ron L. Hubbard a lot - is she on the enemy list? :heh:
     
  25. MrRING

    MrRING Justified & Ancient

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    Could this incident, if true, be what led Hitler to believe in the occult?

    http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/07/pravda-hitler-was-hypnotized-during.html
     
  26. guestus

    guestus Devoted Cultist

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    darn, you mean it's a conspiracy and not true? Here I was starting to be afraid of all those teens with occult symbolism in their art...undercover nazis I tell ya!
     
  27. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    It is known that Hitler formulated his ideas during his time in hospital, but not much else is known about that period.
    The thing about psychopaths is that they think they're special. Coming out of the 1st World War alive may have convinced Hitler that he was indestructible and somehow chosen by destiny for something big - i.e. confirming his delusions.
    Before his time in hospital, he was deemed to have no leadership ability. Afterwards, he was a more confident man with a plan for the future of Germany.
    So - something happened to him while he was in hospital. What, I guess we'll never know.
     
  28. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    Note that the hypnotized Hitler story traces back to Pravda. Having said that ...

    If you want to read more about it:

    (1) The psychologist's name is almost universally misspelled - it's actually Edmund Forster.

    (2) The book's author has set up a website dedicated to Forster at:

    http://www.dredmundforster.info/
     
  29. guestus

    guestus Devoted Cultist

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    I am suspicious of the "psychopath" conspiracy theories. Why not just call them evil/evil people? A psychopath is what they used to call a person with anti-social personality disorder, and still do in popular magazines like psychology today. Now...can't you just imagine them convincing us psychopaths are awful, then schizophrenics are awful, then bipolars are awful...? Like in that little poem/saying "first they came for the communists...". Let's just call Hitler Pure Evil. He needs a category of his own.
     
  30. GNC

    GNC King-Sized Canary

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    Calling Hitler or any other dictator with vast amounts of blood on their hands "evil" is reasonable, but if you want to study what made them so and ensure those circumstances do not happen again you're going to have to come up with a scientific basis for them better than simply insulting them decades later.

    Psychology, where Hitler can be labelled as a psychopath, is one of those sciences, but there can be a problem where anyone who cuts in front of you in a queue can be described by you as a psycho means such terms lose their usefulness. I don't know if Hitler would be accurately described as a psychopath now, he'd probably be called a rampant egotist or something. Most of us can agree he was not the sort of person to be running a country.
     

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