The Grenfell Tower Fire

Discussion in 'Mainstream News Stories' started by Megadeth1977, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Swifty

    Swifty The Great Glass Elevator

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  2. Cochise

    Cochise Justified & Ancient

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    As far as I can tell it is only legal on low-rise buildings because the chimney effect would be far less.

    Maybe that was overlooked. Maybe the regulations are not sufficiently clear.

    But the silence is deafening.
     
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  3. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    As a faulty Hotpoint device was responsible for the fire and with the revelations that Hotpoint/Indesit/Whirlpool devices are still causing fires, shouldn't this Euro-American mega-corporation be compensating the victims and paying for the rebuilding and rehousing?
     
  4. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    The fridge thing went quiet. There was no recall on the model and the fridge owner decamped to Ethiopia within days of the fire.

    Hmm.
     
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  5. Cochise

    Cochise Justified & Ancient

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    Possibly he was afraid of being made a scapegoat. Or equally possibly doing something he shouldn't (not necessarily terrorism - brewing illicit alcoholic spirits, for example)

    I don't know details regarding the fridge but Whirlpool are extremely reluctant to recall anything, however the latest area of concern is tumble dryers, not fridges. Any electrical device can catch fire, of course, due to all kinds of reasons, it doesn't have to be a design fault.
     
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  6. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    Our 1 year old Indesit tumble-dryer was identified as being one of the potentially dangerous batch and was replaced by a new (but identical looking) model last Summer. A couple of months later I entered the serial number of the new one on the Hotpoint/Indesit website and was surprised to see that it was also one of the dodgy ones. I contacted them again and they replaced the replacement.
    Last year, we also had a Hotpoint engineer fit a new door to our Quadrio fridge-freezer, as the insulation had worn away from the power lead located near the hinge.

    Must have cost the Hotpoint corporation many £millions already . I am surprised that they haven't had their socks sued off yet though.
     
  7. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    All possible. It did seem odd that he left with a packed bag though. I had a small fire in my kitchen last year and my reaction was to put it out. If that had proved impossible I would have shut the door on it, left the house and called the fire brigade. I wouldn’t have spent time packing luggage.

    Perhaps this will all come out in the inquiry. We’ll see.
     
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  8. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    Still though, even if there is something suspicious about this character he didn't clad the building with flammable material.

    Just hearing about Grenfell on BBC News.
     
  9. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    The independent review, commissioned by the government, looked into regulations around the design, construction and management of buildings in relation to fire safety.

    The final 156-page report found that:

    • Roles and responsibilities for building safety are unclear
    • Regulations and guidance are "ambiguous and inconsistent" and are "misunderstood and misinterpreted"
    • There is ignorance about the rules governing the industry
    • The process that drives compliance with the regulations are "weak and complex"
    • Competence (of people in the system) is "patchy"
    • The process for testing and certifying products is "disjointed, confusing, unhelpful and lacking any sort of transparency"
    • Product testing and marketing is "opaque and insufficient"
    • Residents' voices go unheard
    Dame Judith - a senior engineer who used to chair the Health and Safety Executive - said: "The above issues have helped to create a cultural issue across the sector, which can be described as a 'race to the bottom', caused either through indifference, or because the system does not facilitate good practice."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44148694
     
  10. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    The Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee will question Dame Judith Hackitt this afternoon following today's release of her Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report.

    The committee has been carrying out its own inquiry alongside the review, which was launched in August 2017 following the Grenfell Tower fire, which left 72 people dead.

    As part of this, the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee has received regular updates from Dame Hackitt.

    Today's final report has surprised some by not recommending a ban on flammable cladding, which is thought to have caused the rapid spread of fire at Grenfell, calling instead for "radical rethink" of the safety system.

    The government has announced it will still consult on whether to ban dangerous cladding however.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44108570
     
  11. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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  12. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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  13. Cochise

    Cochise Justified & Ancient

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    It seems astonishing that they would not ban the cladding.

    Otherwise much as I suspected. Rules that are over complex and thus difficult to understand, pressure to do jobs the cheapest way, and general indifference to the consequences.
     
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  14. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    The cladding is just one issue in multiple points of failure and certainly shouldn't detract from all the other issues here.

    I don't hear that many calls to demolish every thatched roof, timber-framed or wattle and daub building in the UK, which are significantly more combustible.
     
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  15. Schrodinger's Zebra

    Schrodinger's Zebra Who put the writing on the walls?

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    The fridge thing is rather curious. I remember hearing that at the time the fire happened, that it was a fridge fire and at the time it seemed odd hat this part of the story seemed to just fade away. And they've now left the country... just gets more odd. Wouldn't the police have wanted to talk to them, find out their version of events?

    And good point about other combustible houses - I guess people just want something to be done because of this tragedy - but one does wonder how far they expect things to go. It's not reasonable or practicable to make every single building in the country meet current standards. And although of course we don't want another Grenfell to happen - realistically, how likely is it that it would happen again? It's not like these buildings are going up in flames all the time?
     
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  16. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    Indeed, and said cladding appears to have been used in multiple buildings around the country without them going up like Roman candles.

    Along with the cladding issue, one would hope the inquiry would consider what on Earth occurred with the fridge; the official London Fire advice to stay in flats when a speedy evacuation would likely have saved most residents; the wisdom of having any buildings taller than can be reached with fire engine ladders; and the apparent inability of the local council to track who was living in their properties.

    The answers to these questions are likely to upset all parties which is why I doubt very much that they will be asked, st least in those terms.
     
  17. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    That was discussed on BBC News today, hopefully it won't disappear from the agenda.

    Could you gather stuff together about the fridge? It does seem to have disappeared as well but it may be somewhere in the full report.
     
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  18. Cochise

    Cochise Justified & Ancient

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    It does seem to be the main reason the fire spread to the whole building. Otherwise it could be a minor incident affecting one flat.

    But I agree there are many other issues - those however are specific to this case. My concern is that another fire could start - for any reason - in a similar building and the fire spread as madly as it did here.
     
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  19. Cochise

    Cochise Justified & Ancient

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    Ah. The cladding doesn't need banning as such because it already was banned:

    Housing Secretary James Brokenshire said the government will consult on banning the combustible materials. (He means on any building - Cochise)

    "Mr Brokenshire told the Commons: 'Let me be clear, the cladding believed to be on Grenfell Tower was unlawful under existing building regulations. It should not have been used...'"

    Full article (with misleading title) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ver-crucial-safety-reforms.html#ixzz5FqicouhN

    One point of doubt. I wonder why, at this stage, the word 'believed' is being used - don't they know?

    Edit - it is disturbing how many of the commenters over there had clearly not read the article.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  20. Dr_Baltar

    Dr_Baltar Left Foot of God

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    How many of them are high-rise blocks of flats?
     
  21. Dr_Baltar

    Dr_Baltar Left Foot of God

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    Perhaps it's just been fortunate none of them have had a fire yet (or at least one that hasn't spread to the outside of the building).
     
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  22. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    I don't know exact figures, but a good example in London would be "The Cube" in Hackney. It is timber framed and clad and, I suspect, would be significantly more combustible than the Grenfell cladding:

    PSX_20180518_144902.jpg
     
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  23. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    I hope the timber was treated properly, if so it should be safe enough. But can we believe any documents which say it's safe? It would require an independent test at this stage.
     
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  24. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    Agreed. I would be surprised though if wood is any less combustible than zinc-coated aluminium and foam panels.
     
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  25. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    Properly treated it can be quite fire-resistant. But the emphasis is on properly treated.
     
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  26. Cochise

    Cochise Justified & Ancient

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    There have been one or two that have spread, but not as badly as Grenfell because they were more of a block design than a tower. I suspect the chimney effect is geometric rather than linear - taller buildings will not be a bit worse, but much worse. And the fire needs to be in a flat towards the bottom of the building.

    I can't find links at the moment (One I'm sure was in the East End) because searching just comes up with loads of Grenfell related results.
     
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  27. hunck

    hunck Justified & Ancient

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    Yes that wording is odd, as if they don't know what was used..

    If it is the case, someone somewhere along the line in the refurb has broken the law in using that cladding. Knowingly, or else they were incompetent. They should be identified & prosecuted for criminal negligence or even manslaughter & jailed. A deterrence to discourage other negligent cost cutting landlords.
     
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  28. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    Yeah there were a few last year, although on lower rise blocks. It may be that they happen all the time but only got coverage last year because of the proximity to Grenfell.

    There was also a major fire in a hotel in - I think - Dubai which looked to be going up in much the same way.
     
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