Palestinian Leader Blames Jews For Holocaust

Discussion in 'Mainstream News Stories' started by blessmycottonsocks, May 2, 2018.

  1. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    On reflection I'll remove the part about Mrs May and just leave in the Anti-Semitic quotes by Mahathir.
     
  2. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    Re: Gaza. It emerged yesterday that of the 62 dead, 50 were Hamas operatives and 3 were Islamic Jihad.

    Doesn’t really look like indiscriminate shooting on the part of the IDF. It’s also unclear what the alternative was. Allow thousands to breach the fence with a much higher death toll? Allow those thousands to breach the fence and then go on to attack Jewish settlements nearby? Hamas had already announced that it planned to “tear the hearts from the bodies” of Jewish residents and had handed out maps showing the rioters how long it would take to reach nearby farms and villages.

    It seems to me that Israel took the not unreasonable view that better some nasty headlines than dozens of dead Jews. Which, let’s face it, was the alternative.
     
  3. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    What is mean operative? A member of the Hamas political party or a militia member? That needs to be clarified.

    The dead included medics, journalists, children. Many of those killed and injured were hundreds of metres from the fence. No one breached the fence and no Israelis were even injured..

    There is a need for an international investigation into this incident, including as to whether it was intended for rioters to attack Israeli settlements, what documents were issued by Hamas and other groups.

    I agree with Therese May's call for an investigation including the Hamas tactics. Let the truth emerge
     
  4. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    "Hamas is a Palestinian Sunni-Islamist fundamentalist organization. It has been the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip since its takeover of that area in 2007.During this period it fought several wars with Israel. It is regarded, either in whole or in part, as a terrorist organization by several countries and international organizations..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

    According to Pallywood Productions, Inc. Here's an interesting video from a Hamas official:



    Haaretz also casts doubt on the claims that an Arab baby was "killed by Israeli tear gas" (because her mother took her for a walk through the riot and shooting, natch...)

    Suggesting that Israel's actions were effective.

    maximus otter
     
  5. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    But 60 people were killed and thousands were injured. hence the need for an international investigation.

    Wiki is not the most reliable of sources. I do believe there is a difference between a member of a political party and a member of an armed group. It remains to be seen how many of those killed were members of the Hamas armed wing. Again this is something for an investigation to establish.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  6. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    Therein lies the problem. Whilst the IDF tactics were clearly successful in defeating the Hamas operation to infiltrate into Israel, it always seems to be Hamas who wins the propaganda battle.

    The SKY coverage in particular, with their reporters on the Gazan side of the fence, seems to give a disproportionate amount of coverage to pro-Hamas interviewees.
     
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  7. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    The belief that Israel has acted wrongly on this occasion is not an extremist or outlier opinion. It holds widespread currency:

    • Germany, the UK, Ireland and Belgium all called for an independent inquiry. UK ambassador Karen Pierce said: "The volume of live fire used in Gaza yesterday, and the consequent number of deaths is distressing and cannot be ignored by the council"
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44131466

    "An attempt to approach or crossing or damaging the fence do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition," Rupert Colville, a spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told reporters on Tuesday.

    Philip Luther, Amnesty International's Middle East director, said: "This is a violation of international standards, with Israeli forces in some instances committing what appear to be wilful killings constituting war crimes."

    Last month, six other human rights groups asked the Israeli Supreme Court to revoke the military's rules of engagement that they said permitted live fire at protesters classified as "key agitators" even when they did not pose an immediate threat to life. The groups said soldiers should instead follow the law enforcement framework. The court's decision is pending.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44124556
     
  8. Quake42

    Quake42 Warrior Princess

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    I’m all in favour of an independent inquiry.

    I do think that the armchair tacticians should consider what the appropriate response is to an organisation formally dedicated to the genocide of your people massing thousands of its followers to break through the militarised border separating you. Because this strikes me as the clearest possible example of a situation in which it is reasonable for a nation to use lethal force. I don’t accept that it would only be reasonable to do so if your own side suffered casualties as well. That’s not really how wars work.
     
  9. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    lndeed.

    maximus otter
     
  10. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    Armchair tacticians should also consider whether it is appropriate for live rounds to be used against protesters who pose no direct danger to anyone behind a heavily fortified. Thousands of IDF personnel complete with tanks, helicopters and strike jets were behind that fence and were well capable of dealing with any genuine prospect of a breach.

    The IDF were not facing an opposing army, there are rules of engagement under International Law which overrule our opinions of what is a reasonable response. An International Investigation will rule on that.
     
  11. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    "...against protesters who pose no direct danger to anyone "

    That is for the enquiry to determine.
    The thousands of rioters, with wire cutters, molotovs, slings, catapults, IEDs and burning tyres etc. appear to have served as diversionary tactics, whilst the armed jihadis infiltrated Israel through tunnels.
    Some of the comments I've seen online almost seem disappointed that the jihadi attacks were foiled.
     
  12. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    Well, all I can say is that I posted about the tunnel (a news item from Haaretz) on another thread. Tunnels are often used though so whether or it was directly linked to the protests is debatable. Another issue for the investigation to consider.
     
  13. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    Oh come on!
    You cannot possibly believe it was mere coincidence that the Hamas armed terrorists were sneaking through the tunnels at the same time as the mass rioting along the border fence?

    It's a good thing that the vast majority of the Dead were Hamas activists too. A terrible and tragic shame about the young child, granted, but what sort of mother would knowingly and deliberately take an infant into what was effectively a war zone?
     
  14. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    As in my post above, a local doctor has stated that the child died due to a pre-existing medical condition.

    maximus otter
     
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  15. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    That as I said could be considered by the Investigation.
     
  16. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    Let's hazard a wild guess as to how that'll go:

    1. Hamas (terrorists): Mildly reproving waggy finger. (Ignored).

    2. Israel (liberal, tolerant, diverse democracy): World condemnation; media bile; a stern UN Resolution to add to all the others:

    "As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council. Since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

    Hamas will continue raining thousands of explosive rockets on Israeli civilians, diverting billions in aid money to arms and warfare and oppressing and murdering dissenters. The world will yawn.

    maximus otter
     
  17. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    How many Palestinians have been killed in Israeli shelling and airstrikes versus Israelis killed by missiles from Gaza?

    Israel ends up being condemned because it as a State which is subject to International Law has deliberately targetted civilians in those strikes.

    I think the posts supporting the Israeli actions here are the outliers. Even the UK government has condemned the Israeli lack of restraint,
     
  18. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    I'm running for a bus now so my responses may be delayed.
     
  19. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    The disproportionate kill ratio isn't down to want of trying by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs etc. though.

    It's because of a poorly-trained but fanatic bunch of extremists, intoxicated with islamist fervour, taking on a modern, highly trained and well-equipped army.
     
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  20. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    1. "Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. From 2004 to 2014, these attacks have killed 27 Israeli civilians, 5 foreign nationals, 5 IDF soldiers, and at least 11 Palestinians[5] and injured more than 1900 people,[citation needed] but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[6] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

    That does not, obviously, include such other stats as the butchery of Israeli civilians like the Fogel family by Hamas intruders, etc.

    In my opinion, the Israelis have reacted slowly, deliberately and with great restraint and precision in their responses to unfettered Palestinian aggression.

    2. You mean that Theresa "Iron Backbone" May has decided to parrot the anti-Israeli consensus? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!

    maximus otter
     
  21. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    I'm back but with a very patchy connection on a coach.

    Some more figures on casualties which show the Israelis have hardly acted with great rstraint and precisiion.

    This chart shows every person killed in the Israel-Palestine conflict since 2000

    [​IMG]

    You'll notice right away that the overwhelming majority of the deaths are Palestinian, and have been for the almost 14 years since B'Tselem began tracking. Overall, the group has recorded 8,166 conflict-related deaths, of which 7,065 are Palestinian and 1,101 Israeli. That means 87 percent of deaths have been Palestinian and only 13 percent Israeli. Put another way, for every 15 people killed in the conflict, 13 are Palestinian and two are Israeli. (Statistics for the past two months are from United Nations Office for the Coordinator of Humanitarian Affairs.)

    That number is even more staggering when you consider that there are about twice as many Israelis as there are Palestinians. This means, very roughly, that a Palestinian person has been 15 times more likely to be killed by the conflict than an Israeli person. Of course the conflict impacts Palestinians and Israelis far beyond just conflict deaths, but these statistics help show how utterly disproportionate the conflict has become in its toll.

    The disparity has widened dramatically over time. Since January 2005, when the conflict began to change dramatically, it has killed 4,006 people, of whom 168 have been Israeli and 3,838 Palestinian. That means that, since January 2005, only four percent of those killed have been Israeli, and 96 percent Palestinian. Since January 2005, in other words, the conflict has killed 23 Palestinians for every one Israeli it claims.

    https://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths
     
  22. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    These numbers are entirely consistent with the the proportionate casualty rate that occurs when insurgents take on professional armed forces. (Even assuming that the numbers are correct, which is a giant leap of faith). Every dead Israeli/US/British soldier is plastered on the front pages; a Hamas terrorist drops his AK and he’s “ Poor Mohammed, a taxi driver shot by the wicked soldiers”.

    The Palestinians play the world’s media like a Stradivarius, and - even when they’re caught out - the same media somehow neglects to publicise the deceptions.

    “The Hamas Covenant or Hamas Charter... outlines the founding identity, stand, and aims of Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement). The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

    As someone once said, “If the Arabs laid down their arms there would be no more war. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be no more Israel.”

    maximus otter
     
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  23. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    Except that these casualties are largely civilians.
     
  24. ramonmercado

    ramonmercado CyberPunk

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    And you get Israeli Politicians and Rabbis callling for genoicide of Palestinians.

    The Israeli Lawmaker Heralding Genocide Against Palestinians
    Deputy Speaker Bezalel Smotrich's admiration for the biblical genocidaire Joshua bin Nun leads him to adopt values that resemble those of the German SS

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pr...lding-genocide-against-palestinians-1.5475561

    Israeli Religious Figure Urging Genocide of Palestinians
    Netanyahu distances himself from remarks by Shas spiritual leader who said earlier that all Palestinians should perish.

    https://www.haaretz.com/1.5106680

    Israeli justice minister accused of inciting Palestinian Genocide
    By Brett Wilkins May 7, 2015 in World
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu plans to appoint an ultranationalist who recently advocated genocide of the Palestinian people as justice minister.

    Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/...-of-palestinians/article/432659#ixzz5FmC2bk5D


     
  25. maximus otter

    maximus otter Recovering policeman

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    Allegedly.

    Terrorists/insurgents don’t wear uniform, and “civilian casualties” play well with the compliant western media.

    maximus otter
     
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  26. Analis

    Analis Justified & Ancient

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    An often heard professoral lesson on the hows and whys of diplomacy, but it inverts the situation. Non-Western leaders are the ones who have to endure the presence of dreadful 'colleagues'.

    Take Mahatir. As for as I know, he has never supported terrorists, has never directed covert or open agressions on foreign countries, has never been involved in the destabilisation of whole countries, has never made up any accusation against a foreign country to increase international tension... All things that May is guilty of (talking to anti-semite being by far the least of her malfeasance). He is the one who has to summon his patience and put aside his resentment when he has to confront her.

    Someone like Mahatir did not have much role in the deterioration of the international, if any ; but people like May and her French and US friends did do their best to turn it into a bad if not hellish place. They are, really, despicable and heinous persons (last contribution of mine relating to this topic on this thread).
     

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