'Moonraker's Dolly'—Braces or Not?

Discussion in 'Notes & Queries' started by Zeke Newbold, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. Simon

    Simon Devoted Cultist

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    It came sooner than I expected, and...........no braces!
     
  2. rynner2

    rynner2 Great Old One

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    I already saw it - no braces, sadly!
     
  3. Tribble

    Tribble Furry Idiot

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    Ah, so they're showing the digitally altered version ;)
     
  4. jimv1

    jimv1 Analogue Boy

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    And apparently, there was ANOTHER Moonraker film. Directed by Orson Welles to boot.
    So do we add Dirk Bogarde to the list of Bonds?

    [​IMG]


    Like most people who know a little about these things, I always thought Dr No was the first (not counting the 1954 TV Casino Royale). Well I was wrong. And I was also under the impression that the only Bond film Orson Welles had anything to do with was that other Casino Royale, the 1967 spoof, in which he guested as the villainous Le Chiffre. Wrong again…

    Look in any movie guide and I’ll guarantee you won’t find an entry for a 1956 film adaptation of Ian Fleming’s James Bond novel Moonraker, aka Hell Is Here, directed by none other than Orson Welles.


    https://iansadler.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/moonraker-the-forgotten-1956-james-bond-film/

    An interesting read.
     
  5. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    ... And Peter Lorre to the list of Dollies? :evil:
     
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  6. JamesWhitehead

    JamesWhitehead Piffle Prospector

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    Right down to the bottom. :)
     
  7. jimv1

    jimv1 Analogue Boy

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    Yes. I am reminded of another Orson Welles film.
     
  8. Peripart

    Peripart Antediluvian

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    Nearly didn't get all the way to the bottom. Just as well I did. Well played, Mr Bermuda!
     
  9. Mystereaux1

    Mystereaux1 Devoted Cultist

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    There was an ad on 'Carrot's Commercial Breakdown' or something like it, way back, which played on that scene and added the braces. They weren't in the film, you were just meant to worry that he was going to eat the girl and then be relieved that he didn't.
    It's late, but something like that anyway...
     
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  10. baleeber

    baleeber gullible skeptic

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    What a wonderful topic! Off the top of my head, I would have said she had braces too!

    As well, I would have thought there had to be an 80s movie where two kids get their braces stuck together.

    I can remember a friend of mine who claimed it happened to him (this would have been around 1983 or 84, I guess.

    Lol. Mandela Effect, indeed!
     
  11. baleeber

    baleeber gullible skeptic

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    Funny thing: I asked about this on facebook! Five different people described the girl as having braces.
     
  12. Swifty

    Swifty The Great Glass Elevator

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  13. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    Wow. Her teeth do look pretty awful, looking at those pictures.
    It also does look like evidence of tampering. But...how and why?
     
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  14. Zeke Newbold

    Zeke Newbold Carbon based biped.

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    Well, I don't want to say `I told you so`, but I was sayig (and you can look back) on this thread a long long time ago that there was something odd about her bottom teeth (with other posters denying this).

    My own theory was (on the basis of this) was that she had lower braces only (as a compromise option between the need to preserve the comedy in the script and in keeping with the demand from the actress and her agents that she is not made too ugly - perhaps). On the big screen this would have been visible enoguh to telegraph the fact that she was wearing braces - but this is far less visible on the smaller screen formats we watch it on nowadays, hence the confusion.

    I think this proposition still has some legs. Either way, thiere seems to be something truly Fortean going on here.
     
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  15. GNC

    GNC King-Sized Canary

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    Just looks like normal, non-braces-wearing teeth to me, with a few digital artefacts thanks to the author messing about with the images. Should have looked at the Blu-ray!
     
  16. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    OK, good point. Probably just 'digital dirt'.
     
  17. Vardoger

    Vardoger Skeptical by nature

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    Even better. Wait for the 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray version.
     
  18. Mythopoeika

    Mythopoeika I am a meat popsicle

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    If only I could afford the equipment for that.
     
  19. Zeke Newbold

    Zeke Newbold Carbon based biped.

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    But don't you find it odd that the digital dirt just happens to coagulate around the woman's teeth - which just happen to be the very point of contention?

    It would settle it for me if someone could find a still from the same film in whch another actor (not Dolly or Jaws) is grinning or smiling and we could see similar `digital dirt` connected with their gnashers. A sort of control sample, if you like.
     
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  20. GNC

    GNC King-Sized Canary

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    Just get the DVD, make a screengrab and blow it up so much that the image is distorted. Simple as that.
     
  21. jimv1

    jimv1 Analogue Boy

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    I'd rather see some tits if we're going to all that trouble.
     
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  22. Ermintruder

    Ermintruder Existential pixelfixer

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    An excellent & logical suggestion.

    No it's not. Unfortunately...

    The aspect of which specific version of the film print has been telecine-adapted, for each of the video format versions, is also a valid variable.

    A problem with all of this 'Dolly's Braces' mystery is (I suspect, possibly) that those of us who saw the original 70mm celluloid version at the cinema (or perhaps early direct transformatted versions used for initial real-time tv broadcast in the 1970s/80s) may have seen a different 'cut' from that which is now the common video / online version.

    Since she says that she didn't wear a dental brace in the movie, did the version we saw (at original release) perhaps have classic frame-based analogue retouching on the emulsion to add-in a brace?

    I would love to see a 16mm reel of the movie...if a print still exists somewhere (small private cinema??)

    I still insist that the narrative continuity of the shot sequence makes no real comedic sense without her having a brace.
     
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  23. stuneville

    stuneville Amministratore principale Staff Member

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    Exactly. The entire shot makes no sense if she wasn't wearing braces, as the whole rest of the set-up depends on showing that in all other respects they are diametrically opposite from one another. The braces show a sudden, unexpected similarity: just smiling with unadorned teeth would not only perpetuate the difference, but also be as you say a pointless scene, and Bond films of that era in particular didn't hang about narratively.
     
  24. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    a) I never remembered Dolly having braces in the first place.
    b) I thought the comedic effect came from the size difference of the two characters

    If you look at the scene, she is filmed from high up and he from down below, so as to show their respective angle due to the height difference. That's the joke.

    Well, that and the huge glasses, implying very bad eyesight.

    But I am one of the illuminati, so I would say that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
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  25. GNC

    GNC King-Sized Canary

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    I wore braces for about a year, and they never looked anything like the blow-ups purporting to show Dolly sporting them. Showed up in photos, too.
     
  26. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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  27. Swifty

    Swifty The Great Glass Elevator

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    .. unlike in Poltergeist 2 .. that film was braces agogo .. someone should start a thread spoofing this one with "I'm sure I remember that kid in Poltergeist 2 had braces but you can't quite make it out ? it must just be the mandala effect or the lighting ?"

     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  28. Vardoger

    Vardoger Skeptical by nature

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    That's braces and then some.
     
  29. Zeke Newbold

    Zeke Newbold Carbon based biped.

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    Well take a close, zoomed in look at the second picture provided by the poster on that link: if you can't see something oddly discolured about Dolly's lower teeth then either you have poor eyesight-or I've gone potty.(And if it's just `digital dirt` then let's seem some other examples of it from the same movie - especially on other people's teeth).

    I would also ask people to watch that scene again (in any format). The difference between Jaws and Dolly is emphasised byt the camera angles - as has been said above. It is then, however Jaws smiles - and the sun glints along his metallic gnashers (thus emphasisng their importance to that scene). Then when Dolly smiles back it is very tentative at first, almost in an embarrased way - as if she first wants to hide something. Then as she gives a full on smile that's the moment Jaws properly falls for her. They have something in common after all (and the comedy of it suits the vein of that whole film).


    Without braces, or something to suggest them, this scene lacks bite.

    Even if you are of the opinion that Dolly never had braces, or anything suggestive of such in this film,then you still have to account for the fact that so many, so many people out there are adamant that she did - and this includes film critics, the BBC and hardcore Bond fans who must have watched the movie many times.

    It's still a puzzler - and to me constitutes the only really significant `Mandela effect` issue there is - regardless of what the explanation for it turns out to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  30. Vardoger

    Vardoger Skeptical by nature

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    And then there's this commercial with Kiel and a girl with braces.

     

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