JFK: Kennedy Assassination Etc.

Discussion in 'Conspiracy: General' started by Anonymous, Mar 27, 2002.

Who killed JFK?

  1. Lee Harvey Oswald

    11 vote(s)
    26.8%
  2. Mafia

    1 vote(s)
    2.4%
  3. CIA/FBI

    13 vote(s)
    31.7%
  4. Cubans

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. KGB

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. The Illuminati/Masons/Lizards

    5 vote(s)
    12.2%
  7. all of the above

    11 vote(s)
    26.8%
  1. gerhard1

    gerhard1 Ephemeral Spectre

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    This is one of the craziest things. Some of them are silly, but some of them aree outright uncanny.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln–Kennedy_coincidences_urban_legend

    Here is one that I noticed, but that has not reported that much if at at all.
    Both accused assassins were killed before trial, both with single pistol shot from a Colt revolver.
     
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  2. Yithian

    Yithian Incredulous Staff Member

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    What Does the Zapruder Film Really Tell Us?
    Documentary filmmaker Errol Morris deconstructs the most famous 26 seconds in film history

    By Ron Rosenbaum
    SMITHSONIAN MAGAZINE | SUBSCRIBE OCTOBER 2013

    It’s been called the most important 26 seconds of film in history: The 486 frames of 8-millimeter Bell + Howell home movie footage shot in the midday sun of Dallas on November 22, 1963, by a dressmaker named Abraham Zapruder. Twenty-six seconds that included a historic, horrific, all-too-clear vision of a presidential assassination.

    Most people vaguely know about the Zapruder film, but it will soon become omnipresent as the 50th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy approaches. What is not well known, however, is that a single frame of it was kept largely secret from public view for 12 years after the assassination.

    Frame 313. The frame that gave Abraham Zapruder nightmares, the frame he insisted be withheld from the public—a single frame of film that can be said to have changed American history and culture.

    “We like to feel that the world is safe,” Errol Morris tells me. “Safe at least in the sense that we can know about it. The Kennedy assassination is very much an essay on the unsafety of the world. If a man that powerful, that young, that rich, that successful, can just be wiped off the face of the earth in an instant, what does it say about the rest of us?”

    That instant is one we can all now watch on YouTube. In fact, there is a YouTube compilation that includes no fewer than five versions of the Zapruder film—slow-motion, zoomed-in, close-ups. Once you’ve seen the unspeakable act it captures, Morris says, your sense of stability and safety, your sense of the rationality of the world, has been forever lost. It’s “endlessly haunting and disturbing,” he says.

    I wanted to talk to Morris about the Zapruder film because as a documentary filmmaker he’s focused on mysteries (he freed an innocent man from death row with The Thin Blue Line); he’s re-examined secret history (he won an Oscar for cross-examining the enigmatic Robert McNamara in The Fog of War). As a writer, he’s questioned the way that photographic images can document the nature of truth (in his recent book Believing Is Seeing).


    Continued here:
    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-does-the-zapruder-film-really-tell-us-14194/?all
     
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  3. hunck

    hunck Justified & Ancient

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    I don't think anything has been deconstructed in this article. Maybe I've missed something but there's nothing new in it as far as I can see.

    According to one comment, the missing frame 313 he claims was withheld for 12 years, was actually published in Life magazine who bought the Zapruder film, less than a year after the assassination.
     
  4. Yithian

    Yithian Incredulous Staff Member

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    He doesn't deconstruct the film so much as its cultural and psychological impact, but you're mostly right: it's an overview.
     
  5. Yithian

    Yithian Incredulous Staff Member

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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  6. sunsplash

    sunsplash Hello

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  7. Yithian

    Yithian Incredulous Staff Member

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    Another meta-analysis of Zapruder, his film and its fate.

    The Other Shooter: The Saddest and Most Expensive 26 Seconds of Amateur Film Ever Made
    Nov 23 2012, 9:00am

    For many of us, especially those who weren’t alive when it happened, we’re all watching that event through Zapruder’s lens.

    Because the President's limousine passed almost exactly in front of Dallas clothing manufacturer Abraham Zapruder on Nov. 22, 1963, just as he was playing with his new film camera, and precisely at the moment that Lee Harvey Oswald fired his rifle from a nearby books depository, his silent, 26.6-second home movie has become the focal point of America's collective memory on that weird day. For many of us, especially those who weren't alive when it happened, we're all watching that event through Zapruder's lens.

    Other footage from the scene turns up here and there, becomes fodder for documentaries (like this new one disproving the "second shooter" theory). But Zapruder's film is still the canonical ur text of John F. Kennedy's assassination, the most complete and most chilling visual record. In many ways, it prefigured all sorts of American pastimes, from widespread paranoia about government to a loss of faith in photographic truth and the news media, from the acceptance of graphic violence to newer concerns about copyright. The author Don DeLillo once said that the little film "could probably fuel college courses in a dozen subjects from history to physics." Without the 486 frames of Kodachrome II 8mm safety film, our understanding of JFK's assassination would likely be an even greater carnival of conspiracy theories than it already is. Well, maybe.


    CONTINUED:
    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...xpensive-26-seconds-of-amateur-film-ever-made
     
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  8. Swifty

    Swifty The Great Glass Elevator

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    None Zapruder footage from that day ..

     
  9. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    And still they come out of the shadows...



    Source: http://www.salon.com/2017/07/15/the-man-who-wanted-to-kill-jfk/




     
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  10. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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  11. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    Here is the studio log tape of that day as presented by KLIF radio, 1190 kHz in Dallas complete with commercials, the hit songs and the developing story.

    Sorry, this link is messing up big time. I can't get it at the 0 mark.

    Please look for it on YouTube "KLIF Kennedy" for the 3 hour tape.

    It's a good listen. If anyone has no problem linking the video here, give it a try.

    Gene
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  12. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    Yes - but...the Oswald's were introduced to Paine by George de Mohrenschildt - a CIA handler and good buddy of GHW Bush.

    And the Texas School Book Depository was not some sort of government building, but a private company. And that was owned by DH Byrd, one of the founders of the Civil Air Patrol - which both Oswald and David Ferrie belonged to. He was also a good friend of LBJ's.
     
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  13. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    Only thing they had in common was a Russian speaking community. Mohrenschildt left for Haiti in June 1963 and never saw LHO again.

    Those connections had nothing to do with Mr. Truly's independent decision to hire Oswald and place him at the TSBD next to the freeway.

    Also no one had any idea that the President's motorcade would be going by the TSBD until Nov 19th at the least, when it was printed in the newspapers. And the Secret Service made the decision at the airport to remove the bubble top off the car that day:

    Jim Lehrer was at Love Field assigned to cover the president's arrival for the Dallas Times Herald. He remembers seeing the bubble top on the presidential limousine.

    "I asked the agent, a man I knew, who was the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service," he said, "'You gonna leave the bubble top up?' I'll never forget it, Bob, he looked up at the sky and [said], 'It's clear.' So then he turns to the other agents who were all there by the car ... and he said, 'Lose the bubble top.'"
     
  14. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    Well, that's one person's opinion. Many others disagree.

    No one? Not even the people who planned the motorcade? Obviously someone knew - that's the whole point of a conspiracy theory.

    I'm not sure why you are bringing this up, but you seem to assume that JFK would not have been killed if the bubble top had been in place. And that is a fairly big assumption as the bubble top was most definitely not bullet proof. Jim Lehrer will tell you exactly that:

    Source: http://www.thedailybeast.com/would-it-have-saved-jfk-jim-lehrer-on-the-mystery-of-the-bubble-top

    What about de Mohrenschildt and Haiti then? There was no real need for him to be in Dallas that day - his part was already done.

    And what happened to him later?

    Source for both the above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Mohrenschildt

    So - on the same day, he gives an interview about the JFK assassination, is contacted by the the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and then decides to blow his brains out.

    Pure coincidence, I'm sure. Nothing to see here folks, move right along.
     
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  15. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    If he was guilty in the setup, it's strange that he would give an interview to anyone.
    Correlation is not causation. No one knew why he went for suicide. He testified before the Warren Commission as well.

    If LHO was part of any conspiracy, I wonder why his co-conspirators never arranged for his getaway or disposal so he would not have a chance to say anything to the police. He left the scene on his own, killed a police officer in the process before being apprehended in a theater. Not what I would call a tight plan if he had any help.
     
  16. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    He may not have known that he was helping to kill JFK - but you are right, we will never know for sure. There are of course those too who claim it wasn't suicide, but again that's speculation.

    My theory is that LHO wasn't meant to survive that day - but again we will never be sure. The killing of Tippit always struck me as odd and unnecessary. LHO could have just stayed at home - unless he wanted to be caught in a public space such as a cinema so that there would be witnesses and they couldn't just shoot him in the back "trying to escape"?

    LHO wanted a lawyer - and he wanted to talk. Why were no notes kept of LHO's interrogations?
     
  17. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    I agree, that part about Tippet was strange. He also brought a gun to the theater, which was wrestled from him when he tried to reach for it.

    I'm not sure why no notes or recordings were taken or any stenographers called up during his 11 hour interrogation in police custody. Maybe there were, but I'm not sure.

    It is interesting that he asked for a Communist Party USA lawyer, a Mr. Abt, but was unable to get him.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/defense.txt

    He denied killing Kennedy or Tippet, and the "patsy" part of his denial referred to his time in the Soviet Union as the reason for his arrest.

    I guess like some assassins, he banked on some sort of notoriety (much like Mark David Chapman), but the realization of what he just did caused him to go into denial.

    If some well heeled shadow government wanted a hit man, they picked a strange one.
     
  18. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    Notes were taken - and destroyed:
    http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-notes.pdf

    Gaining notoriety doesn't fly with me - why deny it then? That doesn't make sense.

    And that is the whole idea. The word "patsy" comes from the Italian "pazzo" - crazy, or fool. Back in the day, the mafia got the village idiot to do their dirty work for them.
     
  19. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    I found an article summarizing the many assassinations and attempts in US history.

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...y/the-facts-about-political-assassins?mcubz=0

    "Foreigners view the United States as a nation prone to political violence. Nine presidents have been the targets of assassination, along with one president-elect and three presidential candidates. In addition, some eight governors, seven U.S. Senators, 10 Representatives, 11 mayors and 17 state legislators have been violently attacked. No other Western country with a population over 50 million has as high a number."

    Only 2 were organized, the rest:

    "In general, presidential assailants have been outsiders, unusually sensitive to the political cults or sensations of the time. Few have had steady employment. Only one was married with children. Most were immigrants or children of immigrants. Few carefully planned their assault.

    A majority had ideological motives for their crimes but suffered from a paranoid style of thinking and chose their victim almost at random. In only two cases was the assassin a member of an organized conspiracy: in 1865 and in 1950."

    That's why I believe LHO acted alone. The historical record points to it.

    "Patsy"? Very outside chance. They would want the him dead and would arrange his getaway, either over the ground or under it before the police caught up to him.

    As you said: Gaining notoriety doesn't fly with me - why deny it then? That doesn't make sense.

    It doesn't to me, either.

    The delusion of doing something big, like gaining fame over killing someone famous evaporates once the deed is done,and they see the hangman's noose in their future. It was Mark David Chapman's motive for killing John Lennon.
    LHO likely had that "buyer's remorse" and quickly denied it when it became all too real.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  20. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    That is your personal opinion - but you zero evidence to back that up. There is simply not a single thing that points in that direction.

    Well - yes - and that's what happened, didn't it?
     
  21. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    Anecdotal behavior on the bus as he was making his getaway, so I won't go there.

    A bit about Ruby:

    He was luckier than LHO. A few minutes either way and he would have missed the chance.

    Ruby basically committed an impulsive act as a result of coincidences that put him in the right place at the right time to affect history. Shortly before the Dallas police tried to transfer Lee Harvey Oswald to the sheriff's jail in the police station basement, Jack Ruby was purchasing a money order at a Western Union office across the street from the police station in order to help one of the strippers at his nightclub with making her rent money. According to Western Union records, Ruby's receipt was time stamped at 11:17 AM. Ruby then walks across the street to the police station while the police are transferring Oswald. Impulsively, Ruby shoots Oswald at 11:21 AM, just four minutes after leaving the Western Union office. Coincidentally, Lee Harvey Oswald delayed his own transfer by insisting on changing into a black sweater before going into the basement. If Ruby had either finished his transaction at the Western Union office either a few minutes earlier or a few minutes later, Oswald and Ruby would never have crossed paths for the shooting to happen. Similarly, if Oswald hadn't decided to put on a black sweater and delay his own transfer, Oswald and Ruby wouldn't have crossed paths either. If there had been a conspiracy to kill Oswald, Oswald would have had to have been in on the conspiracy himself, because he was the one responsible for the delays in his transfer to the jail in the police station basement.
     
  22. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    Oh come on. How about we let Jack Ruby speak for himself here:

    From a letter by Jack Ruby:
    All of these things you call coincidences - I can't go along with that.
     
  23. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    Also in his own words: http://www.jfk-online.com/ruby-conspiracy.html He confesses to this one coincidence in shooting LHO.

    From 11:17 until later, I was guilty of a homicide. Which must be the most perfect conspiracy in the history of the world that a man was going to accept a call and came from his apartment down to the Western Union. If it had been three seconds later I would have missed this particular person [Oswald]. I guess God was against me. I left the Western Union and it took about three and a half minutes to go to the bottom of the ramp. I didn't conspire or sneak in to do these things, I am telling you. If they had said, 'Jack, are you going down now?' that would make some conspiracy on me. I left the Western Union and it was a fraction of a second until that tragic act happened.

    So if you want to believe him, it was impulse not conspiracy. He was shocked as anyone else over the assassination.

    If however you believe he had orders to silence LHO, it is odd he would accuse LBJ from inside prison while LBJ was president. I guess no one was worried he had any real evidence, or he would have mysteriously died sooner than 1967.

    Sounds like he is giving his own take.

    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/was-oswald-planted-in-tsbd.html Even if he knew JFK would be in Dallas, LBJ did not plan the route past the Depository, Connally who was in the same car as JFK did.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  24. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    Not meant to be a threadjack, but on the KLIF tape, "Everybody" by Tommy Roe was played. He wrote the song while touring the UK with folksinger Trini Lopez. He composed it on a Martin guitar provided by John Lennon of the Beatles who became the closing act of the tour.
     
  25. smokehead

    smokehead Abominable Snowman

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    I think in general what researchers find is not conspiracy to murder but conspiracy to cover up blame for what happened.
    I also think that the numerous reasonably credible theories say a lot about America at that time.
    Not that I'm moralizing, Us Brits leave everybody standing when it comes to dirty tricks.
    I'm guilty of confirmation bias when reading the testimony of Jean Hill, long since dismissed as an unreliable witness.
    It seemed to me there was a deliberate attempt to confuse her during questioning and thus destroy her credibility, she was just a silly woman.
    Seth Kantor the reporter is a puzzle, he knew Ruby from his days working on a newspapers entertainment section.
    His claim that he saw Ruby at Parkland is supported by another witness, but Ruby couldn't have been there they say.
    Enduring and mystifying.
     
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  26. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    So I did some searching around about Ruby and Parkland and came up with other subjects:

    Eventually Jack Ruby made it to Parkland in his final days and gave a deathbed confession.
    http://www.jfk-online.com/rubydeathbed.html

    That in turn has a link to the "Umbrella Man" which spawned all kinds of conjecture.
    Here is a NYTimes video about it and surprisingly the Umbrella man came forth in 1978.

    Another side story was the massive amount of crank calls that came into Parkland where JFK arrived.
    Courtesy of the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2013/oct/07/jfk-assassination-creepiest-detail-parkland

    Of course I never got back on the trail of whether Ruby was at Parkland that day or whether he handed a gun to LHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  27. Kingsize Wombat

    Kingsize Wombat Ephemeral Spectre

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    I don't think we will ever agree on this subject, and that's ok.

    For me, there are just too many strange coincidences in this case. And the "pristine bullet" alone is proof that something is amiss in the official story.

    Mysteries will remain - that's what makes it so interesting.
     
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  28. genex17

    genex17 Devoted Cultist

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    I'm cool with that. I'm not getting a commission out of this and there are other things that need my attention. I also don't want to hog this thread either.

    Nice talking with you :cool:

    Gene
     
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  29. smokehead

    smokehead Abominable Snowman

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    I think a lot of the supposedly sinister associations depend heavily on the six degrees of separation phenomenon.
    There was one book, completely forgotten the title and author, where he went back and interviewed witnesses again.
    One sticks in my mind, the motorcycle cop whose radio was said to be left open and thus picked up the disputed number of shots.
    Don't ask me how but they narrowed it down to this cop and his bike and 'proved' the acoustic evidence was flawed.
    He had died since iirc, but a colleague said he had gone to the later inquiry and denied it was his bike, something to do with differing engine noise.
    They kept on at him until he said it was possible, but only in the sense that anything's possible.
     
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  30. Elsupremo

    Elsupremo Ephemeral Spectre

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    As I explained in earlier posts, Kennedy as well as Lincoln were assassinated by the Federal Reserve and Central Banks for printing debt free money instead of borrowing from each of those Rothschild institutions respectively. Pimp Daddy Federal Reserve put a public smack down on Babylon Whores that don't pay Pimp Daddy his money ( in interest)
     

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