Four Famous Time-Slips Explained By Physics

Discussion in 'It Happened to Me!' started by AlbertM2018, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    The somatic / psychological stress angle is certainly in play. Here's another Goddard quote(?) from the Osborn book:

     
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  2. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    There's another aspect to the oft-retold and heavily-glossed Goddard story that's been bugging me.

    Many of the third party retellings make reference to the Firth of Forth and the notion that either (a) Goddard's scary downward descent happened over the Firth or that he feared he was over the Firth while falling uncontrollably unable to see the terrain below.

    The most specific indication (in Goddard's own words) regarding where he was when he finally dropped out of the clouds and regained control of his plane comes from the version of his story in the Osborn book:

    (Immediately following the passage quoted above in post #61 ...)

    The reference to clearing the foreshore indicates he came out of the low clouds over water, then flew toward land. In his own 1975 book Goddard skips over the dangerous descent (cf. earlier quotes) and only mentions being over land.

    In both versions, Goddard states he was disoriented and unsure of his location.

    In the Osborn-quoted version above, Goddard thought he recognized the shore he'd reached and proceeded with an expectation of the Drem airfield lying somewhere ahead. However, he specifically states this expectation was predicated on whether he had correctly surmised where he was and in what direction he was then flying.

    In other words, Goddard was 'self-primed' to believe whatever airfield he next encountered was the one near Drem.

    In the 1975 version, Goddard's account indicated he was lost and had no knowledge or expectation of being in the vicinity of the Drem airfield - or any other airfield - until he unexpectedly encountered one.

    Consider this ...

    If Goddard indeed came out of his hair-raising dive over the Firth and crossed over the shoreline as indicated, but in a northerly rather than southerly direction he might well have encountered RAF Donibristle - a fully operational airfield at the time and substantially closer to Leith (purported location at the time of the storm-induced panic and descent) than the decrepit airfield near Drem he'd seen circa 16 hours earlier.

    I'm not the first to wonder whether Goddard's encounter involved an airfield other than Drem. Some skeptical authors have suggested Goddard's 'vision' occurred to the west - e.g., involving RAF Renfrew or maybe RAF Abbotsinch (both in the Glasgow area).

    I've not come across any such skeptical interpretation involving the multiple RAF airfields along the north shore of the Firth.
     
  3. oldrover

    oldrover Justified & Ancient

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    Certainly, there is nothing in either of these accounts outside of personal perception to support anything out of the ordinary having happened. If there is, and I'm missing it, please point it out.

    Also, while you raise the issue of Jenny Randles having questioned how they could have paid for a room in the early 20thC with 1970's currency, you don't seem to have addressed this adequately, why for example would the hotelier have assumed that as tourists they'd have had their money exchanged for some 'latest' update? And don't you imagine that even if this was the case, the hotelier wouldn't have examined the coins/notes? Especially as they were foreign and his most likely reaction would be that they'd given him foreign currency. And had he done this he may have noticed that the dates were from some point in the future. 'Funny that',he'd have thought.

    As to her other question, regarding the cars, I don't think they would have just accepted a 1970's car as being not too far of normal. Not even a Citroen Dyane 6, and do you have any evidence that this was the model of car they were driving?

    But after this you say that in 'section 5' we'll see a scientific explanation 'according to quantum mechanics and physics'. Which begins with

    'After having clarified that the narrations above deserve scientific attention - and so only a totallybiased approach could dismiss them as “hallucinations”, “frauds”, etc., refusing aprioristically to cope with “paranormal” perceptions'

    Well, you really haven't done that. In fact you've offered nothing in support of the the Montelimar case that even approaches doing that. I'm not sure you believe that your impressions of the couple from the Youtube clip, observations about the stolid seriousness of the English Middle Class, and the suggestions you offer regarding the discrepancies noted by Randle demonstrate that statement, but they do not. All being entirely subjective and unevidenced, so that statement remains completely unsubstantiated. I can't comment on what follows and in all fairness as neither of us are physicists it seems rather pointless to try.
     
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  4. oldrover

    oldrover Justified & Ancient

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    Bampton; here there's a fact not repeated which casts doubt on this being anything other than the Roberts having simply failed to find Bampton again the following day. And it's worth pointing out that this ever having been strange in the first place relies on us deciding to forget that getting lost on a driving holiday is a daily if not hourly event, and finding the place you were the day before is not always all that easy.

    To recap, it's supposed to be strange that the Roberts found the village full of flowers and looking beautiful on their first visit, presumably the inference is that this corresponds to the sign which said 'Bampton, Best Kept Village of 1976' while next day, presumably firmly now back in 1993, all the flowers had gone.

    This is very strange, not because the flowers were there the night before, but because they'd gone the day after. Can anyone guess which village won the RHS National award for best village in bloom in 1993? Yes it was Bampton. Here's a link which shows all the other years that it won too. http://www.bampton.org.uk/achievements.html

    So given that to win this competition, and at a national level and not just a regional heat, would have required flowers and lots of them, the question would seem to be where were they the following day? So given that, the 'timeslip' must have actually occurred on their return trip. Making the details of the watches, and the unburnt map irrelevant, which of course they always were, as how plausible is it that they both checked their watches, agreed the time, and rechecked when they left? In any case, unless they were both wearing digital watches the 'few minutes' it took them to pass through the village would represent an almost imperceptible transit of their minute hands, especially as they had at that time no reason whatsoever to be careful about noting the time. This represents evidence that they might have embellished their accounts, albeit unintentionally afterward. And the unburnt map? cigarettes might land on their tips, but they don't stay that way they drop on their sides and as someone whose dropped many over the years, I know you can normally retrieve them before they mark the surface they land on, and the smoke they 'remember' is nothing surprising from a burning cigarette and not necessarily anything to do with the map it landed on. Again, that they see this detail as worth recounting suggests they've been carried along with their story.

    And if you think about it, if it wasn't for the sign the whole premise collapses, but it could only have been put after the competition had been decided (unless it was a timeslip within a timeslip) and last year the results were released in October, so this is means that a timeslip into the summer of 1976 was never on the table in the first place.
     
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  5. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    "I cannot waste my time with persons writing FALSE THINGS. Sorry, this is the end of discussion."

    This reminds me of what happened a year or so back. Someone joined the forum to post his account of a claimed Nessie sighting, but then threw a tantrum when his views were challenged.
     
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  6. henry

    henry still speeding

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    never did get to see that photo
     
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  7. Victory

    Victory Junior Acolyte

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    AlbertM

    Thanks for posting your theory.
    It was a possible explanation I had not previously considered.

    I do not think your paper prooves anything.

    But I found it interesting, and a possible explanation for time slips, ghosts and UFOs.

    I look forward to the day when we can know for sure what causes these phenomena.
     
  8. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    I second that, but I'm afraid that day is a long way off!
     
  9. GerdaWordyer

    GerdaWordyer Abominable Snowman

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    Interesting examinations and refutations of the OP, but no quibbles here about these incidents being the "top four well-known"? I would have thought the Liverpool/Bold Street policeman's weird shop account would be more prominent.
     
  10. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    An interesting topic for another thread maybe? There are so many Liverpool cases similar to the one you cite that it would be hard to choose. Maybe what would be the top ten cases?
     
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  11. Human_84

    Human_84 Somewhat human

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    Amidst all the discussion and extrapolation of Goddard's flight, had anyone realized that during these supposed "time slips" one doesn't ever escape until one crosses a sort of invisible but very physical line separating the time slip experience with the "real" world? The two couples at the inn had an entire night's rest and presumably could have stayed in their time slip experience for weeks/years more!? If these experiences are real, then I'm convinced that there's a physical line which must be crossed in order to end the experience.

    A few questions arise about this particular case, but applicable to all cases, which cannot be answered with certainty:

    1) Where exactly was this imaginary line and could the other traffic along the road witness their vehicle fading in, or out, of existence as they entered and exited the time slip along this line (or shall we call it the wall of the bubble)?

    2) What if they'd remained at the hotel and eventually called in scholars and scientists with whom they could have spilled technological secrets or future happenings?

    3) What if they'd lit a match as they journeyed down the road after leaving the hotel? Would it suddenly become "unlit" at the moment they crossed back into the "real" world or would it find it's way back into the matchbox as if the idea had never risen?

    Anyone want to take a shot at these?
     
  12. blessmycottonsocks

    blessmycottonsocks Justified & Ancient

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    Never mind lighting matches, why not simply ask the hotel staff what the date was?
    If (and I am hugely sceptical about the 'Avin You On case) it was a date prior to WW2, then their civic duty should be to write a letter to the French president, warning of a German attack on 10th May 1940, which would bypass the Maginot Line.
    That might have caused a few Mandela Effect ripples!
     
  13. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    Very difficult to sift through the posturing on the nature of physics to *find* reference to those 4 cases within. But I suppose it's positive to see a Timeslip Thread focusing purely upon scientific posturing, rather than derailing all other discussion on the subject, for a change... ;)
     
  14. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    I think the important thing to note here is that at the time of the experience neither couple in the Avignon Story considered that they had in some way slipped through time. They just thought this was 'rustic France' for want of a better term. They noted that some of the fitting and the costumes of some of the people they encountered there appeared a little old-fashioned, but even when the bill was presented (and much less than they expected) nobody thought 'We've gone back in time'.

    This was also the case when they trued to find the hotel a second time on their return leg. They just assumed they had taken a wrong turn or two. That it was their own sense of direction which had let them down.

    It was only after they returned home, looked for the photos they all recalled posing for and taking, only to find no such photos printed or in the negatives that theories started to formulate.

    One would perhaps assume that any such theoretical bubble might have been localised to the hotel itself, but we really have know way of knowing. In many time slip experiences I agree, there does seem to be a point at which the subject experiences 'stepping out of' what they are experiencing. Like the ex-copper on Bold Street in Liverpool who stepped through door of an old looking shop from the outside, to find a newer shop on the inside. He was aware of a change.

    The two couples here were not. If we're to believe them at face value.



    Again, they'd have had to suspect they had timeslipped. It would be fascinating to see what would have happened if they had tried to phone out to somebody, for example. Would the phone number have been recognised? Would they be considered to be in the past, and therefore find somebody else answering the call? Or would there simply be no way of connecting calls back to England, at the exchange? It would have been possible in the 1970s. Probably not so possible at the time the slip may have gone back to.



    Impossible to say. There are very few timeslip stories where an object from the slip itself has been brought back to the present. There is a story of a man in Great Yarmouth (known only as 'Mr Squirrel') who claimed to have had a timeslip at a stationers. On that occasion he claimed to have purchased envelopes during his experience, which some versions of the accounts refer to as having deteriorated quickly after returning home.

    But it's rare.
     
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  15. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    Goddard's story provides one of the only physical discriminators for the now-time versus then-time boundary crossing I can recall anyone ever mentioning. His vision of the anomalous airfield scenario corresponded with entering and leaving a patch of sunlight (as if from a break in the clouds, as he described it ... ) during an otherwise very stormy / rainy morning.

    I'd suggest the first step in exploring the boundary issue is to return to original sources and check which ones (if any ... ) yield mention of similar shifts or thresholds, however allusive, that might insinuate a shift in scene or circumstances suggestive of crossing a boundary.

    I'd also recommend digging into any of the cases suggesting a single shift to see if there's any indication of a presumptive second shift or crossing.
     
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  16. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    I'll just have a go at question 1.
    Yes, there does seem to be a distinct physical line where the boundary exists in time slips. In built-up locations it seems to correspond with distinct physical features -- e.g. shops, roads, pavements, alleys etc. This is the rule in many of the Liverpool cases. Nobody ever reports seeing a shop interior with half new and half old sections. However, sometimes people who are outside the slip can see the time slip location but don't enter it or interact with it. This is true in the cases at Rougham where people see old buildings but haven't so far tried to enter them. What do other people see? In the Leeds case one of the witnesses failed to spot a lady in present time and walked right through her, so presumably she had entered the slip instants before and therefore just didn't see her. It seems clear that a shop assistant saw the witness enter the shop and pass through the other customer, before disappearing, because she reacted with visible fear after the slip ended and the witnesses re-entered the shop (however, it hasn't been possible to trace her so far). In a case in Regent Street a driver entered what seemed like a medieval version of London, and hurriedly reversed only to find himself about to collide with a driver behind. In another case a lady who entered a Victorian/Edwardian street exited from it and startled a man on the corner who said the street had been empty before her appearance. Sometimes (as in the Kersey case) the witnesses notice changes in the environment (weather, time of year, etc) as they pass a specific point, and then things revert to what they were previously when crossing the boundary.
     
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  17. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    I think we'd have to label this as a 'mostly, but not exclusively' feature of a timeslip, though.

    On the other thread, we did have that story from Kings Lynn. The arrival of the furious coachman... :) In that account those who experienced it were stationary, standing by a fence near the railway station.

    They note a change in background sound levels, the noise of arriving hooves as this coach appears, completes it's maneuver and the disappears from view. The sound of hooves disappears into the distance and things return to 'normal'.

    Most time slip experiences, I agree, do feature a subject moving or entering a place or position where things begin to change around them. They may not notice it a first, but there could well be some kind of theoretical line crossed into (and out of) the timeslip.

    But not all.

    The example of the story above is more like (for want of a better analogy) a weather event. Like a cloud of rain passing over. Those involved did not move. The time slip event passed over the area, rather than their passing into it.
     
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  18. EnolaGaia

    EnolaGaia I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...

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    Agreed ... The key factor is the relative place, passage / action, or space where a transition seems evident - not a particular physical location at which transition begins or ends.

    Clues gleaned from prior accounts will be specific to that story and its location, but the clues' significance should be assessed in terms of the transition effectuated rather than the place per se.
     
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  19. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    Fair enough, mostly, not always. A weather event is a good analogy for this type of outdoors case; however, a large majority of slips reported in towns and other populated areas do seem to conform to the boundary concept.
     
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  20. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    Oh, I would agree. It would likely cover the majority of reported timeslip experiences over many years and decades. It's certainly typical of most stories provided. Just not all of them. :)

    Now as to whether or not the subject in some of these cases wandered into a more localised, weather system like, timeslip event as it moved across an area - and that it was just coincidence of being in the right place at the right time? We will never be able to conclusively know, of course.

    I think it's natural to think of a timeslip as being specific to a geographical location, though. For example, as we know from the Time and Dimensional Slips thread, if you look across recorded cases you will often find more than one example of a timeslip story within a relatively small area of another.

    For example, there are multiple stories of possible timeslips in and around Bold Street in Liverpool. There are multiple stories of vanishing pubs on Isle of Wight. These are not identical tales. They don't describe the same sequence of events, places or individuals involved.

    But...

    They did happen within a certain radius of other stories. It's not implausible that there could be some kind of connection.

    The holy grail of timeslips, of course, would be to identify a geographical location with a high enough number of occurrences to chart them. And in doing so that it might at some point be possible for people to predict when future slips might occur. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018 at 9:29 AM
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  21. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    Liverpool is the leading area where multiple time slips have been reported over the last few decades, and if only someone there would make a concerted effort to study the phenomenon in depth, not just collect individual reports and look at them in isolation, we might get somewhere. There are said to have been over 100 cases there, although I have only located about 40 or so. I am in no doubt that there are definite correlates of time slip events but I get so much flak from certain people for raising the controversial issue of earth energies that I tend to avoid the subject now. I can only say that "that's what I found at Rougham" and it wouldn't surprise me if the same was true in other locations.
     
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  22. JamesWhitehead

    JamesWhitehead Piffle Prospector

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    How do the figures look when we exclude the local Slemen field? :btime:
     
  23. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    Ha! Yes, it does have to be said that Mr Slemen has somewhat cornered the market for Liverpool stories of all things supernatural. And multiple books in which to cover them...

    That said, while I do think the likelihood of exaggeration (and/or making things up) can't be utterly written off there may still be something of worth in it. Certainly no harm in investigating.

    In the early 2000s (when Mrs Ident was still living on Merseyside and I was visiting regularly) Bold Street was a road I walked down many times. While I certainly never saw anything akin to a timeslip it's one of the few roads in the City centre to have stuck in my mind (and to have survived the City of Culture redevelopment).

    A bombed out church at one end. The edge of the Liverpool 1 development at the other. Cafes. Forbidden Planet Liverpool. Waterstones. Sop fronts with awnings from multiple eras mounted on top of their predecessors.

    It's a very, very old street.
     
  24. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    Still notably more than in any other small area. Worth noting that although a number of people have claimed that he makes it all up nobody, to my knowledge, has ever proven this or indeed presented any evidence at all. He does embroider by inventing dialogue which neither he nor the witnesses could be certain of, but I am sure that if anyone spotted anything obviously wrong, in terms of the specific places that he names and the names of the witnesses (a few have remained anonymous), they would have come forward and exposed him. He is a thorough researcher and I am in no doubt that his interest in phenomena like these is genuine. I suspect that sometimes he is the victim of the Liverpudlian sense of humour though.
     
  25. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    I actually just came across quite a detailed account by Slemen which claims that he has received something like 400 reports from time slip witnesses, which is obviously a bigger number than I ever imagined. Even if we halve this number there are clearly a lot of people in Liverpool who feel that they have experienced time slips, so it is obviously quite easy for Tom Slemen to pick the most exciting and extreme cases to write up in his many books. I would certainly rate his time slip stories far higher in terms of reliability than some of his more ghostly stories, where he clearly feels able to embellish and exaggerate the sinister and disturbing elements.
     
  26. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    Apparently FT had a very brief and generally uncomplimentary discussion about Slemen several years back:

    http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/tom-slemens-books.10000/

    The consensus was that Slemen didn't so much make up stories as borrow them from other places and place them in a Liverpool setting, and that he wasn't too careful over the details of known cases. Again, hard to judge as the evidence against is also hearsay and lacking specified sources. Certainly some of his cases I treat with caution. I think we have to rely on our gut reactions on a case by case basis!
     
  27. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    I don't doubt for a second that Mr Slemen doesn't in some way embellish his stories. He's a writer. His audience is readers of his books or listeners to his radio appearances. It's natural to add an element of showmanship to that.

    But I do think that there is an grounding of a genuine account behind them. Maybe take his telling of them with a pinch of salt, but I think it would be unfair to write them off in one fell swoop.


    Well that was a blast from the past... :) Yes, I understand that some on here clashed with Tom Slemen directly. I do recall the accusations of sock-puppetry. I don't think that was anybody's finest hour...

    The notion of 'borrowing' and re-purposing stories in a Liverpool context has indeed been raised before. There may be a little truth in it, it may just be coincidence. But I don't it would be fair to write off everything which Tom Slemen has collected and published over the years. Likewise with the claims of overselling Urban Legends as truth.

    Like I say, take it all with a pinch of salt. Use your own judgement.

    Tom Slemen recounts stories told to him, or stories he has found. It's not a scientific report or an official document. There may not be hard proof given to back it up. Some of it may be hearsay, spread around from person to person, Chinese-whispers-style, before he ever heard of it.

    He's a writer, not a researcher.

    But that's not to say that what he's written doesn't have some kind of grounding in a real experience. The Bold Street examples are hardly what one would call extraordinary events. They appear perfectly plausible and believable. Though obviously it would be great if we could corroborate the story with the individuals involved.
     
  28. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    Agreed -- good summing -up. It seems to me that the great majority of Liverpool time slips in Slemen's books and articles are described in a measured and sensible way, no unjustified elaboration, no sense of exaggeration, a fair account of information given to him by the witness. In contrast, some of his more gruesome ghost stories are full of detailed dialogue and read more like fictional accounts from the start.
     
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  29. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Ephemeral Spectre

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    I just did a quick check on some of the Slemen stories. In some of the cases he does give the full names of the witnesses, and in some of these also their approximate ages. So I have checked the Free BMD site for several fairly precise names: (Most in time slip or other time-related incidents).

    Haunted Liverpool Casebook: Case in 2009, 64 yr old Harry Waring.
    FreeBMD: Harold Waring b. Oct-Dec 1943, Liverpool N., mother Dutton.

    May 1982: Andy Connolly ("in his 20s").
    BMD: Andrew Connolly, b. Oct-Dec 1963, Liverpool S., mother Murphy.

    Haunted Liverpool 9. Mary Murphy, 16 on 17/7/65.
    BMD: Mary Murphy b. Jan-Mar 1949, Liverpool S., mother Dalton.

    Haunted Liverpool 5. Billy Marston, b. ca 1949
    BMD: William Marston, b. Jan-Mar 1948, Liverpool S., mother Booth.

    haunted Liverpool 21. Jimmy Quirth, b, ca 1948.
    I failed to find this one but it became evident from other early entries in Census data that the family is of Russian origin, and there are several variants, e.g. Kurth. It may be that he decided to change back to the original form even though he was registered at birth under something else. More checking needed.

    Haunted Liverpool 10. Billy Wilson, 1992 case, 55 at time of writing (2010-11)
    BMD: Four possible William Wilsons born in Liverpool in 1955.

    In short, where it is possible to check Slemen's data regarding the witnesses, they seem entirely reliable.
     
  30. CuriousIdent

    CuriousIdent Not yet SO old Great Old One

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    Cheers for that, Carl.

    I don't suppose you happen to have details of what story each was involved with? The nature of their experience?
     

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